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Topic: G# tuning issue |
Robby Osenton
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 7:26 am |
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I have a few years old Fessenden SD-10 I bought used.
When I have the A pedal down, the G# string (6th) drops about .1 in pitch. When I use the A+LKL change for the major chord, the string drops .3 in pitch. This is measured with my boss. I am familiar with cabinet drop, and I dont think this is what is causing this. This is very noticeable, and that major chord sounds very sour. I find that reverb and bar vibrato covers the effects of cabinet drop on the other strings, but this one move is really bad.
How should I fix it?
I am wondering if one of the three allen screws on the top of the changer might be the ticket, obviously the one for the 6th string?
I usually tune my guitar by tuning the open strings, then adjusting the nylon tuners for the each change, then I try to do some slight adjustments while playing to get it even closer.
I am assuming a well set up pedal steel is kind of like a 3 barrel saddle tele's intonation. You are looking for an average close intonation, rather than perfect, which is simply unattainable. Is this correct? |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 8:05 am
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Hi Robby. Sounds like a classic example of detuning, often called cabinet drop or any other generic terms that describe such a condition, which could actually be caused by several things.
The 3 screws you mention are for tuning splits. A method of accurately tuning a string that is both lowered and raised at the same time, so that is not your issue.
The decimal indicates cents or hertz or meter position?
Some amount of detuning is common on most guitars, particularly the condition you describe.
I sent you a message via the forum PM feature with some info on how to compensate your guitar for this condition. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 8:14 am
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I assume you are using a plain sixth string, and that your LKL lever raises the Es to Fs. Assuming the above, I think cabinet drop could be entirely what you are dealing with.
A plain sixth string will detune more than any other string on the tuning, when the A floor pedal is pushed. And if you are also raising the Es with LKL, then you have four raises at one time all contributing to cabinet drop.
You can try using a wound .22 on the sixth string. That will detune much less than a plain .20 or .22. However, the tone/timbre of the steel changes somewhat. I prefer a plain sixth for the tone.
Like your Tele analogy, perfection is not possible. Don't let the tuner drive you crazy. Tune the steel the best you can (with or without a tuner), and then use your hands and ears to play in tune. |
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Robby Osenton
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 8:24 am
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My tuner has 5 lights on each side of the note, so I as assuming the first light was -.1, and the 3rd and 4th lights was -.3
I am using a plain 6th, and LKL raises Es to Fs, LKL drops Es, RKL drops the G#, RKR is a doublestop on the 2nd string.
I have been trying to slant the bar to get it in tune, but it is still really sour. I am new to pedal steel(8 months or so, 6 with this guitar), but have played guitar for 15 years and have a great ear for bending, so I am pretty sensitive to it, and both of those changes (A pedal only and A+LKL) are almost unusable at times, A+LKL is significantly worse though.
I never play with my tuner on, as it doesnt really matter if you use bar vibrato, but these two changes stick out even with vibrato.
thanks for the PM jerry, using an extra rod to compensate is a good idea. I think I would need to attach it to the LKL though.
Last edited by Robby Osenton on 21 Jun 2011 8:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 8:38 am
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I find that by trueing up the 6th string with the comp rod that I mentioned, tuning the 4/8 LKL raises with that when the A pedal is engaged, the problem you describe is nearly eliminated or at least diminished to an unnoticeable degree. This on several guitars over the last 20+ years with an extreme detune condition like the one you describe.
I would be cautious about adding too many compensators as that gets confusing. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 9:32 am
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On a tuner with lights (as opposed to cents or Hz measurements), tune your first pedal to -1 and your LKL to -2. That should help to make all of the major chords sound more in tune. You will find yourself aiming a little bit high of the fret when you use LKL.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jody Cameron
From:
Angleton, TX,, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 9:34 am
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| Jerry - do you add the G# comp. rod to the A pedal or the F lever on your steels? Thanks, JC |
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Benjamin Jayne
From:
Orange County California, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 10:00 am
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wouldn't having a 6th string compensator rod on the A pedal interfere with the AB pedal tuning of the 6 string?
_________________
Lamar S-10, Goodrich L10K VP, Carvin Vintage 16 all-tube amp, John Pearse Cryogenic steel tone bar, John Pearse strings. |
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Jody Cameron
From:
Angleton, TX,, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 10:18 am
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| Benjamin - that was my line of reasoning as well. JC |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 10:23 am
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| A pedal, Jody. Works for me. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 10:30 am
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No. Doesn't interfere with the AB pedal raise combination at all. The comped position is only a slight raise of the G# by a few cents whereas the B pedal pull is going past that to a full half tone. It's just like any other change you have raising a string to 2 different notes. FI, 4th string to F, F#.
How could it interfere? Been working for me for decades. |
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Jody Cameron
From:
Angleton, TX,, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 10:38 am
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| Ahh! The light comes on now...thanks Jerry. JC |
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Benjamin Jayne
From:
Orange County California, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 12:25 pm
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Thanks for clearing that up, Jerry-makes sense when you think about it mehanically. Great example with the 4th string.
Now if I could only get my 7th string to stay in tune with the AB pedals engaged...Any hints on that one?
_________________
Lamar S-10, Goodrich L10K VP, Carvin Vintage 16 all-tube amp, John Pearse Cryogenic steel tone bar, John Pearse strings. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 12:58 pm
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| Benjamin Jayne wrote: |
| Now if I could only get my 7th string to stay in tune with the AB pedals engaged...Any hints on that one? |
Yep, same idea. People been doing this for years. Some players put it on both 1 & 7 F# strings. Add a comp rod to pedal A that lowers the 7th string a wee tad when engaged. You could do it on the B pedal, but there's already a lot going on there and since it already has an issue with detuning, the A pedal works best.
These comps are moving the changer very slightly and hardly have any noticeable effect on pedal feel. We're talking about all pull guitars generally here.
I think some the confusion about compensators is largely one of semantics. This the same hardware and operation as any other change on your guitar.
Over return compensators are a different animal however, so maybe we need to make a distinction between raise/lower truing compensators and those dealing with over return problems.
Overall, I think it's best to work within the limitations of your guitar. None are perfect and all have their own idiosyncrasies. Learning to play around the imperfections is just part of the process. I don't suggest adding a bunch of hardware for every issue.
However, in cases like these where an extreme condition causes annoyance and severe tuning problems, I don't see any reason why we can't address these issues. Any problem you can alleviate isn't a problem anymore. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 2:28 pm
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| My Franklin has "cabinet drop", like most guitars, but it doesn't interfere with picking. The only time I know I have it is if I look at it with a tuner. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 2:55 pm
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| Well said, Jack! |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 21 Jun 2011 5:01 pm
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Same here, Jack. I try not to look at the "cabinet drop" on a tuner. If I can't hear it, it's OK.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Benjamin Jayne
From:
Orange County California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2011 10:41 am wound 6th string to unwound-help
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I recently changed strings on my guitar for the first time, and I went from a wound 6th string to a plain 6th string (G#). While I prefer the new tone of the plain string, I am definitely noticing more cabinet drop on the 6th string now than I had before. Besides getting a compensator rod, are there any suggestions when it comes to tuning to make the 6th string G# sound better with the A pedal down? I had a tuning cents-chart for my guitar that worked nicely with the old strings, but since I changed gauges, that chart is off, of course.
I plan to start with the "Jeffron" chart again and adjust from there by ear as I did before, but is there anyone else with experience switching from wound to unwound 6th strings that can suggest a better starting point or which direction to adjust things to save me some trouble? I could post my old chart and the changes in gauges if that would be helpful, but I expect this to be more of a "trial and listen" process.
One thing I tried is tuning the 6th string slightly differently than the 3rd string, but this might cause other problems that are more annoying...any other suggestions?
_________________
Lamar S-10, Goodrich L10K VP, Carvin Vintage 16 all-tube amp, John Pearse Cryogenic steel tone bar, John Pearse strings. |
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