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Topic: 2nd string raise Eb to E with 6th string lower G# to F# |
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 7 Jun 2011 8:08 pm |
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Looking for ideas on what this change is used for . Seems like a combination of some Franklin changes. Emmons setup on the pedals . This change is on the LKR lever. Also raises the 1st string whole tone to G#.
I notice that this change seems to be somewhat standard on Fessendens. Don't know about any other ones. |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 7 Jun 2011 9:57 pm
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Think I've already found my answer. Looks like putting the 5 & 10 lower on 4th pedal, or the 0 pedal, with the 6 lower on a lever gives even mores possibilities for sweeter sounds than having all three on the same pedal.  |
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Franklin
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Posted 8 Jun 2011 4:39 am
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Todd,
Lowering the 6th string to F# on the same lever as raising the 1st string to G# cancels out half of the possibilities......Its better to raise the 2nd string Eb to E with the first string raise, leaving the lower G# able to raise to the A note for the choice of either a G# or A note in combination with the first and second string raises.........
Pedal change arrangement with all change ideas is extremely important........To see where everything should be placed.......I would check out the copedants of players like Rugg, Emmons, White, Garrish, Jernigan, Hughey, Crisp, etc to find advanced ideas that bring about the most combinations ......Remember there is a very good reason why some changes are not put together on one lever or pedal on the master players guitar......This forum has most of the advanced copedants.... Its a great source to see what provides the most bang for the buck.........
Choose one of their arrangements and stick with it...There is a lifetime of new discoveries within all types of music within any of those guys copedant..........Paul |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 8 Jun 2011 5:32 am
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Paul is THE Authority and his "Franklin Pedal" changes are becoming standard.
But, I have that setup on my Franklin, RKL. I had the first string and the 6th strings originally when I had the guitar built in 81 and added the 2nd string change about 15 years ago. My wife's S-10 GFI Expo has that same 1st/2nd/6th string RKL setup, stock. The Carter stock setup also had this same RKL combination. |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 8 Jun 2011 6:26 pm 6th string lower from G# to F#
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| Todd, that G# to F# lower on string 6 when used in combination with the Eb lowers on strings 4 and 8 is very important because you get a B chord on strings 4,5,6&8...having the Eb lowers on the LKR and the G# to F# lower on RKL works out great because all you have to do is bring your knees together. I was just looking through Winnie Winston's Pedal steel Guitar book (1975) and was surprised to find that only a few of the top Steel Guitarist had this great change...BTW, Bud Charlton and Buddy Emmons were two of the few listed as having that change. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 8 Jun 2011 6:55 pm
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Wow, it sure is great that Paul takes the time to come on here. What a treat.
I used to have the 1st, 2nd, 6th changes as described on my RKR (along with 2 pulls on my C neck). It was a little too much, so I moved the 1st and 2nd string changes to a second LKL.
I am the opposite of Jack (I am a Day player). I spread my legs to get the 6th string lower and the E lowers. The 6th string lower is my 3rd most used knee lever. I could not live without it (well...).
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 8 Jun 2011 9:17 pm
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Paul, I'm honored you would take the time to reply to my post. Would you say that raising the 1st & 2nd string alone , and having the G# or the raise to A on the 6th string is essential to your sound & style?
I'm going to have the 1st & 2nd raise with the 6th lower on the LKR, and have the 5th & 10th string lower on pedal 4 . I'll be able to use this easily to get the "Franklin" change I believe. I'll play around with this for a while to see how i like it, although I should probably just listen and take Paul's advice to put the 6th lower on pedal 4 with 5 & 10 lower. Won't be very hard to change if I want to do it later.
Having it set up like this will allow for me to lower the E's and lower the 6th as Brad mentioned , so I'm covered there.
The steel I'm getting is a D-10 Fessenden .I'm noticing almost every Fessy I see has the 1,2,& 6 change on a knee lever together.Seems to be a standard change on Jerry's guitars.
Jack says his Franklin and some Carters and possibly some GFI's have this change come standard . There's got to be some proponents of having these 3 changes on one lever out there.
Just sold my ShoBud , so I've never given these changes much thought before. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 8 Jun 2011 11:41 pm
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| If you have the 5th string lower on the VL, there's a cool chromatic thing you can do every three frets by lowering the sixth string and rocking on and off the B pedal. Start two frets behind the zero position... |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 9 Jun 2011 2:17 am
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Todd, that's not "standard" on a Franklin. The Franklin's were all custom built to customers specs.
It is standard on a GFI and was standard on the Carter's, unless the customer wanted something different. |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 9 Jun 2011 3:40 pm
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Ok....so Paul Franklin says its best to have the 6th string lower on the same pedal/lever as the 5 & 10 lower, so you can raise 1 & 2 and keep the 6th string at G# .
Somebody has got to have some ideas on the other school of thought . Why put the 6th string lower with the 1st & 2nd raise? |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 9 Jun 2011 6:19 pm
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| Todd Brown wrote: |
| Why put the 6th string lower with the 1st & 2nd raise? |
because there's no where else to put it. I'd be really surprised/interested to hear about someone making good use of having these changes on one lever. I have it, but I treat it like two levers. It's the one thing I don't like about my e9 copedent. |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 9 Jun 2011 6:49 pm
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| I'm just trying to see what makes the most sense , as far as placement of the pulls. It seems that Mr. franklin has the right idea. As he said in his post , putting the 6th string lower with the 5 & 10 lower, gives you everything as if it were with the 1 & 2 raise , but by placing it on a different pedal/lever than the 1 & 2 raise , it's more useful . |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2011 6:56 pm
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R- raise 1st string to G#.
1____________8/8R___
2___________________
3___________________
4________8__________
5_____8_____________
6_____8_____________
This is a simple but nice sounding lick. If you lower the 6th string with the 1st string raise you can't do things like this is what Paul's talking about.
Tony |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 9 Jun 2011 7:35 pm
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Why limit your setup . Tony , I see what your saying. Without having a steel right now and never having the changes before, kinda hard to know what I'll like and be comfortable with. But I really see where it makes the most sense to have the "Franklin" pedal, the 5,6,&10 lower together.
I'm not into any of the newer country , but I do love alot of what Paul Franklin does. Everything with Alan Jackson. I like to do alot of the 1st raise on some of the older A.J. So I'm really excited about having the second string raise , too. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 6:12 am
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| Curious what you gain with 2nd string raise Eb to E that you can't do with the 4th string Eb to E? |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 7:59 am
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Here's a common use for the 2nd string raise:
Some Contemporary Sounds - E9th - Raising string 1 a full tone, string 2 a half tone, lowering string 9 a half tone on this tab page:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab10.html
Greg |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 8:25 am
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My #4 pedal lowers 5 & 10 a full step to A and string 6 to F# ( the "franklin pedal")
My knee lever raises #1 to G# # 2 to E and #7 to G#
I changed it to lower #6 to F# tried it and quickly realized it was a redundant change and it did not make sense keep it.
It also helps if you don't think of pedal 4 and the lever as "lick" changes. |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 11:18 am
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So does anyone know what the benefit of having the 6th string lower on the lever with the 1 & 2 raise?
Why does Jerry Fessenden put this on virtually every Fessy I've seen. And a few other builders also , like the Carters (which arent being built any longer) and GFI. There's got to be a better reason then "There's no better place to put it" as Brett Lanier said. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 1:07 pm
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I can see no benefit other that the fact that they can advertise the guitar as having one extra change without buying an extra knee lever. It does interfere with the 1st and 2nd string raises in the majority of uses.
IF the 6th string lower is your main use of this knee lever, and you didn't mind the interference with the first 2 strings, then just view it as having the 6th string change with the 1st two strings as a bonus.
I had it that way for a while when my guitar had limited knee levers. In fact my guitar came that way from the factory. The fact that many manufacturers put that change on their guitar doesn't mean that it makes any sense, especially if one wants full modern use of the 1st two string raises.
If I showed you one really cool use of having all those changes on one knee, and 5 cases where it hurt your use of the pedal, would it still be worth it?
Greg |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 2:05 pm
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| Not sure I fully understand the question, Greg. Are you saying that having the 6 string lower on the same as the 5 & 10 lower could hamper their use also ? Like it does with it being with the 1 & 2 raise. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 3:12 pm
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| Todd Brown wrote: |
So does anyone know what the benefit of having the 6th string lower on the lever with the 1 & 2 raise?
Why does Jerry Fessenden put this on virtually every Fessy I've seen. And a few other builders also , like the Carters (which arent being built any longer) and GFI. There's got to be a better reason then "There's no better place to put it" as Brett Lanier said. |
Brett said "There's no other place to put it." What he means (I believe) is that, if you're going to put that change on at all, it's the least worst place to put it on a guitar with the standard number of levers if you want to have the 1st and 2nd string changes.
Personally, I'd lose the 1st and 2nd string changes and go with the 6th string lower on lever 4. That's what I do on a couple of steels with only 4 levers. But that's a personal preference. I'm not a big fan of the treble-strings-unison-bend licks that are so prevalent nowadays*. YMMV.
(*And there are other ways to get them if you want them.  )
(Of course, I expect Paul has other uses for those 1st & second string raises, too.) |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 3:55 pm
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| Todd Brown wrote: |
So does anyone know what the benefit of having the 6th string lower on the lever with the 1 & 2 raise?
Why does Jerry Fessenden put this on virtually every Fessy I've seen. And a few other builders also , like the Carters (which arent being built any longer) and GFI. There's got to be a better reason then "There's no better place to put it" as Brett Lanier said. |
I am just saying, that there is indeed no better place to put it in limited knee lever setup is indeed why it's there. On a D-10 you could throw in on pedal 8!
Greg |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 4:04 pm
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Brint,
I don't care for the treble unison riffs either. They are grossly overused in modern PSG.
However there are 3 major uses of the 1st string whole tone change, many posted in my tabs above, that don't involve any unison sounds.
1) You can pull up to the G#, offering another opportunity to get pedal actuation sounds. Kind of like lowering the 3rd string a whole tone then raising it back.
2) On strings 1,2 and 5 you can get a 1 to 4 or 5 to 1 change with crystal clear tone. Yes this is available elsewhere but it stands out on a recording a bit better.
3) With pedal B activated, changing the 3rd string (G#) to an open A, you can get the G# back again by raising the 1st string a whole tone. This opens up more chromatic sequences and gives you a neat A major 7th chord that you can pedal into, increasing the dramatic effect.
I also find it pretty easy to half pedal the F# to G# change and if you can do this, it doubles as an F# to G knee lever in addition to offering a few more chords.
Greg
Last edited by Greg Cutshaw on 10 Jun 2011 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 10 Jun 2011 4:07 pm
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| Todd, Paul has an instruction course on the Franklin Pedal and the 1st and 2nd string raise. It will answer your questions and give you some great licks to work one. They are worth the price and then some. |
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