Steel prices

Drew Taubenfeld · From: California, USA

I have a question about old and new guitars. I know that vintage vs new has been endlessly debated so I'll try not to open up that can of worms too much. I wanted to ask specifically about prices.

Vintage guitars are ridiculously expensive. There is not much of a question about whether to buy a '58 strat vs a new strat. the decision is made for you. Unless you recently won the lottery, or have tens of thousands of dollars of disposable income, you buy a new strat. However there are some areas where you can find good vintage gear at a comparable price. For instance, it's not hard to find a 60's gibson j-45 for 2,000-2,500 dollars. A new j-45 cost 2,400. The 60's stuff can be hit or miss. But having played many old and new acoustics I think it's a no brainer to grab a good 1962 j-45 before buying new. 70's and 80's marshal jmp's and jcm 800's are the same IMHO, They are cheaper and sound better than the new ones. I know about guitar but I don't know about pedal steels. that's why I was hoping you nice folks could chime in!

I keep hearing about the unmatched tone of emmons push pulls and old sho buds. I always assumed they were expensive but I see S-10 emmons going for 2-2,500. Sho buds seem to be selling for as little as 1,500! A lot of high quality new steel guitars are around 3,000-5,000 dollars. My question is, what am I missing here? Are old guitar that much of a pain to deal with? Is this a situation where modern manufacturing costs have driving the price above the vintage market? or is there a huge advantage to owning a new, well built guitar as opposed to an LDG or a Push pull.

I look forward to you responses!
Drew

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Hi Drew,

I'm a vintage nut too. I think you answered your own question. Vintage pedal steels are the best value on the planet! I think the current state of the economy has a lot to do with that, and I don't think it will stay this way forever. With pedal steels being such a "nitch" market, we're really fortunate to have so many excellent brands to choose from when it comes to buying new. Look at the "Steel Builders" thread, and count how many there are. And they're all good! It's a catch-22 though, because the same thing that is driving vintage guitars down to such low prices has to be making things tough on the builders. I'd guess that were it not for the hobby players, many of them couldn't sell enough guitars to make it work.

I wish I could afford to grab up every vintage guitar that goes up for sale. But, no can do. For someone looking to take up pedal steel, now is a great time to grab a vintage guitar. One note of caution though... buying a vintage pedal steel can be a risky thing if you don't know what you're doing. Some of these old guitars are simply worn out. Sure, you can get them restored, and thankfully there are many highly skilled restoration techs, but restoring an old, worn out steel is not an inexpensive thing. When I bought my '73 Sho~Bud Pro-II in 2004, I didn't know anything about steels, other than they sounded cool. I'd been playing fiddle for 30+ years at that time. I bought it on Ebay (I didn't know the forum existed at that time), and basically lucked out. It was a real low mileage guitar, and after a tweak or two by a skilled tech, I was in business.

Although there is the occasional deal gone bad, I will say that you can be very confident in buying a used guitar here on the forum. You won't find one for pennies on the dollar, but there are some very fine guitars at fair prices posed for sale by reputable sellers here every day. Looking at the for sale section and drooling is a daily activity for me.

Good luck with your purchase of a pedal steel. If you are just getting into it, have fun!
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Elton Smith · From: Texas, USA

Supply and demand is the issue.Ive owned probly every six sring guitar there is at one time or the other.Vintage eletric guitars just don't cut it if you play them.They are wall hangers as the need to be.A 56 tele in origial form can't beat the sound of a Mex. tele to me.Quaity is the issue here.That 56 was made 3times as good as that Mex.If not it wouldn't be around now.How ever wood and such Material was much better back then.When I first joined the forum I ask who made the best steel guitar ,thought it would be like the two main makers .Fender or Gibson.Not so with steel guitars.Seems every maker goes out of their way to make the best instrument they can make.The old steels don;t seem to be that way.We just keep up dating them.Im going to start a thead and see if the pedal steel guitar is an American invention.I know the Dobro was.So im sure it is.Don't know if I help any, but my2 cents
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ShoBud
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Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Elton, I'm confused...if the '56 tele was made three times as good as the (current) Mex tele, and the '56 is still around because it was made out of better material, how come the (current) tele sounds better and is perferable?

Elton Smith · From: Texas, USA

I am talking about fret wire,wood and all metal.Those guitars were made in America so was the materials.The pickups were hand wound which you never knew what sound you were getting. Modern electronics far surpass the vintage stuff.Remember that old 60 cycle buzz on those single coils.Don't get me wrong there are some very good guitars today,but their not cheap.Teles were 200.00 bucks but you had to pick em out like flat tops to get the sound you wanted.
_________________
Gibson Les Paul
Reverend Avenger
Paul Reed Smith
Fender Telecaster
MSA S10 Classic
ShoBud
Old Peavy Amps

Chris Tweed · From: Cardiff, Wales, UK

Elton, weren't Dobros invented by the Dopyera Brothers from Czechoslovakia before they emigrated to the US?

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Getting back on topic, vintage Emmons' and Sho-buds steels are valued collectors items, and yes, they are great sounding axes.

But the mechanics involved in building a pedal steel guitar have been steadily improving over the years, and today we have 4 raise 3 lower changers with tunable splits.

The pedal steel guitar is a mechanical devise, and the new ones work better.
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James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

Interesting thread, but I'm always curious about the value of a NFS steel?

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

There seem to be more or less "red zones" to watch out for as far as the older stuff. An Emmons push-pull seems to be a tonal gold standard, but they require someone who really knows that specific guitar's mechanics to set it up initially, and to change setups is harder than most. There are certain older Sho-Buds with parts made of pot metal; they may sound good for awhile, but there's a constant threat there. If you pick one of these up really cheap, you can get the entire undercarriage rebuilt with some higher-grade parts - there were three guys doing this, now it's down to two? There's a brand called MSA and their older guitars seem to be a good compromise between vintage and modern, every once in a while they'll pop up as low as $1,000.

Among the modern builders, you can luck into a Carter or GFI for $1,400 or so... there's endless debates about tone and timbre and all, if you know guitars you know all the right terms already! Laughing

I bought a new Carter in 2001 and it does everything I need, it's better than me. I didn't even know what "cabinet drop" was, because it don't DO that.

The biggest choice you have is between E9th tuning, C6th tuning or both, or Universal 12-string that's supposed to have the best of each - though many top players keep the double-10 setup. And there are many, many idiosyncratic offbeat tunings, but there's far less useful instructional material if you go "off the reservation." I came to it not from hearing country players I wanted to emulate, but from being a serious slide guitarist frustrated at what I couldn't do playing jazz and rock; I'm still several lifetimes away from what I want to do!

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Im not quite sure about the Tele comparison. I think they are like the shark of the guitar species, that is, they've been around for ages without any real significant modification in design. The steel guitar on the other hand, has gone thru numerous changes and improvements in design since its inception. Theres probably a bit more maintenance on a vintage steel than a brand new one. I may take that old Tele since It may just play as good as a new one, but a vintage steel could require some mechanical experience with them that I dont have. There' a lot of moving parts any way you look at it. Very Happy

Clete

Drew Taubenfeld · From: California, USA

Thanks for the info. much appreciated.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

I rebuild old 'buds. As a word of caution, on the surface and to a novice's eye, you might THINK your getting a quality guitar---maybe you are, maybe you are not. When you by a fixer-upper, becareful that after you get the project done, you are not upside down on your investment money-wise as well as time. Doing refurbs right is time consuming, so allow plenty of time. It's easy to over spend. There are some things that are quite subtle to the average eye that are very expensive to fix. Get an expert to check it out BEFORE you invest. Some model shobuds, simply avoid. I've seen some awesome deals, as well as a few to avoid. ASK FIRST!!

But saying all that, nothing like an old 'bud that's been gone through and dialed in!!
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Elton,
'57 Strat ('61 pickguard), plays wonderfully, and sounds killer! The only reason I don't gig it anymore is, I don't gig anymore. I don't think I'd gig with it these days though. Too valuable.

I like my old Shobuds. The '74 is very easy to work on, and the '67 Rack and Barrels guitar is a piece of cake! A wonderful design IMO! And very easy to understand.

Elton Smith · From: Texas, USA

I bet that strat has the 3 position switch unless its been changed.We used to take a pick and wedge the switch to get the 2 and 4 positions on new strats.I would guess if you went and got a new strat and pick em up with each hand the old one will weigh more.Denser wood or what have you.The pups in the old one will be wound around 6k.The new one will be a little hotter.Quality rosewood is getting hard to find.Some of the major guitar makers will send you a pint of stain to color it with.I don't know if we have an American tuning machine maker left.Even guitar cords don't fit like they used to.Ive had to adjust the input jack in a lot of guitars.I saw a news cast with Hilary Clinton on a flite with some industial steel makers that told her they didn't know if there was enough American steel to patch the hole in the side of the USS Cole.These are just things I've noticed over the years.
_________________
Gibson Les Paul
Reverend Avenger
Paul Reed Smith
Fender Telecaster
MSA S10 Classic
ShoBud
Old Peavy Amps

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Aside from Bigsby, and perhaps very early Emmons push-pull guitars (wraparounds and bolt-ons) and Franklins, vintage steel guitars are an insane bargain, as compared to the vintage guitar world. I think most of the reasons have already been stated:

1. Supply may be low (the number of push-pull Emmons D-10's ever made is not far from the number of PAF-equipped 1957-1960 Les Pauls, for example), but a very small pool of people who can play them keeps demand down.

2. They never went through a phase of 'quality drop' due to over-production and changing manufacturing techniques (e.g., as Fender, Gibson, Martin, and Gretsch did during the 70s and 80s) and continuous mechanism improvements make them very desirable for ease of playing, ability to implement very complex setups, ease of maintenance, and so on.

I'm sure there are people who might take issue somewhat with the following idea - but if you think about it, the basic state of the art in steel-strung acoustic guitars (either flat-top or arch-top) was reached in the 1930s, and the basic state-of-the-art in solid-body electric guitars was reached in the 1950s and early 60s. There are some slight exceptions, but for the most part, acoustic and electric guitar-making has not moved much beyond designs of those periods. OK, some clever improvements and amalgamations (e.g., PRS, super-strats, and so on), but most really modern designs have tanked in the market.

Not so for pedal steel. I'm sure there are those who feel that the Emmons push-pull is the apex of PSG development, and I love mine, enough so to buy a little student model to learn how to work on them (project in-progress this week). But I think it's pretty clear that some modern guitars really have significantly advanced the state-of-the-art in playability, precision, and ability to handle complex setups. My Zum and Franklin are going nowhere, could not live without them.

And thus, used 70s and 80s push-pull D-10's have been running in the $3000 or so range for the last few years. I saw a black one last week for $2500. OK, it's partly the economy, but even when the economy was going full-guns, most vintage steels were still generally less expensive than one of the desirable new ones - e.g., Franklin, Zum, Mullen, MSA, and so on.

The forum quote that disturbed me more than anything I have read since I joined this forum was this from Mike Brown a couple of weeks ago in this thread - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=205274

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Very well put Dave Winking

Elton Smith · From: Texas, USA

Chis you are right,but the instrument was invented here.They started making those in the 30's.When WWII came along the US gov.had them change their factory over to making type writers.Thats why there is a time gap in their production.
_________________
Gibson Les Paul
Reverend Avenger
Paul Reed Smith
Fender Telecaster
MSA S10 Classic
ShoBud
Old Peavy Amps

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

If you compare prices to wages from the 50s and 60s you will notice PSGs are cheaper now that they were then.
Yes PPs are a bargain if you have someone that knows how to work on them and will show you some stuff.
Some times getting them up to par is a little spendy.
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David Ellison · From: California, USA

Vintage electric guitars are over-inflated in value because people collect them. They're considered "iconic"... a part of American culture. People buy them to lock them in glass cases, not play them.

Drew Taubenfeld · From: California, USA

ok, how about taking guitars out on the road?

If you get an old bud or emmons that's in good shape to begin with, how do they hold up getting dragged around the country. Is this an area where new guitars have a distinct advantage? or is a well setup old guitar basically the same?

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Shorty Smith · From: Columbus, Georgia, USA

I played a 1972 tele for a few years, then went to the Emmons p/p. My tele has been in the case for 25 years and is still in excellent condition, wonder what it would be worth?

my 73 Emmons P/P is not to bad either, Shorty

Jack Goodson · From: new brockton,alabama (deceased)

shorty: i don't know what the value of either one would be, but i know how good they sound and play. as i have played the emmons several times over the years and i think i might have played the tele a couple of times....thanks jack...(only thing i know is that i will have to be down to my last guitar and have to have the money to let mine go)

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

Disclaimer: I am a PSG beginner but a long time player of pedestrian 6 string guitars. The mojo of a vintage guitar seems well understood out there in the world, less so a vintage PSG.

Small volumes, custom builds, and, especially, labor intensive construction explain the price difference between vintage and new. Everyone has a better mousetrap and they arent made with a lot of universal off the shelf parts such as fret wire. If there was a bigger market for the pedal steel guitar China and Mexico would be building and selling them cheaply. Im glad the market is relatively small...I think it promotes craftsmanship and quality. Most new PSGs seem worth the price, if you analyze honestly what went into building it, and look beyond sticker shock. I assert that deciding to build pedal steels is taking a vow of poverty bigger than the buyer takes spending the $3-5k.

I agree there is a gold standard, established by the market, that bids up an Emmons or Sho Bud higher than some brands, which you may justify by playing and hearing them. IMO a vintage steel is not the same as a vintage acoustic. Its a machine with a lot of moving parts to wear out and requires specific knowledge and maybe a machine shop out back, to make it right again. Most old steels are in some state of looseness or disrepair. In this light, new can be a realtive bargain. Theoretically, you could clone a vintage PSG more faithfully than a vintage acoustic or electric (for reasons others have debated: woods, etc) but the hand labor and procurement of special parts wouldn't bring it down to the used price. Cheers.

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Shorty,
The prices of those early '70s Fender Teles are sky-rocketing to a point where it seems ridicolous, those in good condition here in Europe nowadays sell for up to 4000 EUR, so I guess in dollars there won't be much difference. I simply don't get it because many of them are not that good actually. I used to own several and tried out many more and most of them really did not sound as good as the earlier (or even later) ones, way too thin and harsh. Unless you change the pickups maybe, but by doing so you ruin the collector's value. (I personally prefer a player's guitar, even if it's not 100 per cent original).
I bought a '71 Tele in 1990 for 1200 DM, that would be 600 EUR or roughly 800 dollars today... nobody wanted them in those days. Maybe I should have kept it.
(Excuse me if this is about standard and not steel guitar, but somebody asked.)

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