Playing technique: prickling bar-hand

Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

Hi
I just wonder, if I am the only one with this problem:
after a short time of playing (about 10 min.) my bar-hand starts prickling, it “fells asleep”.
I have to interrupt and shake it….
I need to do that as often as possible while playing ; it’s pretty nasty.
Any experiences with that? Thank you. Ruth
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Is your hand relaxed or tense when holding the bar?

Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

I would say relaxed, the bar lays on the strings more or less by itsself, I just have to move it, needs not much power
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros

Shorty Rogers · Posted 1 Jun 2011 8:59 am

It could be a problem in your neck, as inflamation of the cervical vertebrae can cause that. I get that sensation often, and am able to stretch my neck and shoulders to get a little adjustment pop. I've been living with this for decades and have had a fusion. A trip to a chiropractor may help if you can't work it out yourself.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

I hate to say it, Ruth, but I second what Shorty says. I had a herniated cervial disc a couple years back and after injections and stretch therapy it got much better. I have what appears to be permanent nerve damage in my right hand, and my thumb and index finger are somewhat numb. Mostly picking works ok, but sometimes the finger just doesn't respond to the mental message and skips a note here or there. It makes playing fast much more difficult for me. I hope you can track it down and alleviate the symptoms!

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

If not from tension actually in the bar hand, also check to see if you're tensing up the tendons up in your forearm. I've had several students who tense up in a way that produces stress in the area slightly below the elbow of the left hand, yielding bar control or numbness issues. Progressive relaxation exercises from the shoulders and neck all the way down to fingers may help, as well a s being aware not to hold tension in the arms as well as hands. Best wishes.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Nerves can get pinched anywhere from the neck on down to the fingers. If the same thing is happening when you hold a pencil or some other kind of thing, you really should see a doctor - they can do nerve conductivity tests that show exactly where the pinching is. If it's only happening when you play steel, there's got to be something you can do about the way you hold it. These things are unfortunately very common, it seems as though our nerves weren't designed to last as long as the rest of us?

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I suggest you try changing your position at the steel. Try sitting lower, and then higher. I'm thinking that either would change the angle of your wrist a bit. If there is nerve impingement in the wrist a slight change in the wrist angle could be all it takes to eliminate the problem.

Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

I am surprised to get so many feedbacks. Have to admit: both hands had carpal tunnel syndrom surgery 15 years ago and the left hand never really recovered. But it never bothered me that much exept now, when playing steel. I may see the chiro, you're right, Shorty.
I remember it started bother me when I started playing a steel guitar (a borrowed one) that is actually to high for me. Yes, I might try to vary the hight of my seat....
David, you surely got the answer, Whoa!

nerves seems to be wearing parts
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Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Which fingers go "to sleep"?

- all?
- just one in particular?
- Combination of fingers?
**** thumb, index and long?
**** ring and pinkie?

John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

Iagree with Paul 100%. My steel seat at home is a little shorter that my Walker seat I use out. At home with in 10-15 minutes of practicing my right hand and fingers go numb. Almost like carpal tunnel. Change your height more than likely your seat needs to be raised.

Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

all exept pinkie. Mostly ring.
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I "got the carpal" in both hands, I had the left operated on last year and the right is creepin' up on me. Fingerpicking is actually easier, with a flatpick I get about 20 minutes tops. And the reason you get so many responses is because we're all falling apart, too. Mr. Green

As they say about getting old, "Consider the alternative...."

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Sounds more like a a median nerve problam than a neck problem. Without an exam, cervical xray and electrodiagnostic eval (nerve condution and EMG studies) it's not possible to pinpoint a diagnosis. See your PCP, this is a fairly routine workup .

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

That's Dr. Tony Glassman, folks, making his services available right here, for you, on the Steel Guitar Forum Smile

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Ruth,
I had an identical issue at first.
I had nerve damage on my left hand years ago which never seemed to bother me on 6 string but cropped up on PSG.
I notice from your avatar that your steel is rather high and that your wrist angle may be causing some extra tension. Try raising your seat and see if that helps.
I also switched to a 12 string bar which is larger and heavier and that helped a lot too.

Clete

Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

Thanks to all so far for sharing also non-musical and unpleasant things.
Dr. Glassmann, I have to correct myself: I carefully watched my playing and its mainly thumb and index falling asleep, actually all - but these two the most. I also raised my piano seat and sat more to the left than before... Will have to try this for some days...

What made me post the question here: I have this nerve damage for a long time (they told me in 1997, my EMG results are as bad as by a 100 year old person. I am not even half that old) When I started playing PSG a little bit more than a year from now, I could practice for hours without any problems. So why now? Is it possible to practice too much?
I know my EMG was as bad in 1997 as in 2009..... but the problems when playing PSG just started around christmas (after 9 months playing)
I play the Dobro for about 1 1/2 years and never have had problems there, although it seems to me pretty much the same: the bar hand is more activ on the Dobro because one plays lots of single notes up and down the frets.
So my thoughts went that way: maybe I should better stop playing PSG, it's worthless to spent time here because if this barhand- troubles will continue like that, I will soon be unable to play.... nasty thoughts......
That's why I asked: hoping to get some miraculous hints Alien

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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

First off, on this forum I'm plain 'ol "Tony". (I save the "Dr" title for my office and in the hospital).

Secondly, you should have the etiology (cause) of your hand problems diagnosed w/ EMG (needle exam) which looks for active denervation of nerves supplying specific muscles (herniated cervical disc, MS etc) and Nerve Conduction Studies which try to locate a specific site of peripheral injury along the path of a given nerve.

In your case, it sounds similar to the pinching of the median nerve as it passes through the carpal tunnel. The tunnel is a fibrous band over the front of the wrist, under which 9 tendons and the median nerve pass through on their way to the hand. Any thing that causes swelling within that tunnel exerts pressure on the tunnel contents, the most fragile of which is the nerve. This is usually due to repetitive wrist or finger motion, rather than trauma.

The reason why it's more noticeable on PSG vs. Dobro could be due to a lot of ergonomic things: bar shape, bar pressure, left wrist/hand position, bar grip etc.)

Treatments can include B-vitamins, steroid injections, wrist immobilizer splints, and most effectively surgery (arthroscopic Carpal Tunnel Release, which opens up the fibrous roof of the tunnel to release inward pressure on the contents.)

My rec: See a neurologist for a workup to determine the exact diagnosis and its severity. If you need surgery, it is done w/ a scope so it is a fairly benign procedure (as far as surgeries go). It can be done under a local anesthetic and expect about 6 weeks of hand rehab.......Hope that helps.

Elton Smith · From: Texas, USA

Ruth,get you a bottle of Wild Turkey.Get every thing tingling.Then you got nothing to worry about.Just kidding. Elbo
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

ol Tony:

, pm sent. We don't want abuse a steel forum for medical subjects........

As far as for you others:
surgery already made, waiting for the wonder now.

Dr. Elton:
you get the "Dr" from Tony: you deserve it Laughing

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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Just by coincidence, this month's "Premier Guitar" has an article about the stretching and exercises that can keep one from needing surgery.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2011/Jun/How_to_Avoid_Your_Chiropractor_Playing_Guitar_Without_Breaking_Your_Back.aspx

This is not to say that you shouldn't see a doctor, but there are a variety of physical therapies designed to help different kinds of problems. I also have disc problems as well as carpal, and I have probably half-a-dozen books on the subjects. However, the biggest change I did was moving to a primary care doctor who specializes in sports medicine. That may be amusing, to look at me, but he is knowledgeable about the exact kinds of things I can and shouldn't do. You may want to look at the "McKenzie exercises" as the posture issues on steel guitar can cause hand problems, for sure you need to experiment with angles and height and all. If the tingling is worse the farther you extend your arms from your body, I'd guess it's a neck/posture thing. To a certain extent, the PEDAL steel guitar immobilizes your legs in the position they have to be in to work the pedals and knees, then you have to figure out how to get your upper back comfortable from that starting position.

I often use large, light bars home-made out of Delrin and though I was trying it for speed and tone considerations, but it helps with grip too. If you're playing Dobro, you're probably already familiar with the Shubb Pearse SP-1; you can slit a section of rubber or plastic tube and slide it over the handle for super-grippability.

Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

David, the article is quite interesting and the exercises seem to make sens....
Thank you for posting!
Interesting also the different bars and grips. Does the grip not change the tone? Is it all around? I am astonished you use light bars.
I will go and see a chiro next week and hope she has some good ideas. (maybe I show her a video with me on steel)
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

That 4th bar over in the picture is leaded crystal, from Diamond Bottlenecks. It's 1.25" in diameter. You might think you couldn't mute behind the bar with the edge of your palm, but I have normal-sized hands and it's not hard. This tingly kind of problem is really common, there are bars out there with a ring at the tip, bars with grooves down the side (the "Carter" bar), bars with velcro rings attached to the top... various things go in-and-out of production. MSA used to make a bar with rubber side inserts, I never have been able to track one down when I had spare money. I think I remember Jim Burden at Bullet Bars doing some special machining for people:
http://www.bulletbars.com/
There was just a thread over... here it is:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=206169

I can't remember who was selling those bars with the ring on it, but somebody here will remember. There have been a lot of "home remedies" as you can see above, too. If you think of what you need - a straight surface 3.25" long with a curved tip, some weight behind it, that YOU can hang onto comfortably... well, it doesn't have to be "normal." The real issue is whether the tingles are from the squeezing of it, or just the arm extension.

http://www.diamondbottlenecks.com/DB08/index.asp?n=17
http://cgi.ebay.com/STEWS-Guitar-Slide-Tone-Bar-CUSTOM-SP1-USA-/160592957807?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item256416116f
(disclaimer: I have been a test-pilot for both Ian At Diamond Bottlenecks and Stew. Bush pilot, that is.)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Delrin-Steel-Guitar-Tone-Bar-w-metal-insert-/220792148376?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item33683cd198

Glenn Uhler · From: Trenton, New Jersey, USA

Until you get some definitive answers, try keeping your wrists as straight as possible when you play. Keeping your wrists in a neutral position will help keep your carpal tunnels open, not pinching the nerves.
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler · From: Switzerland

David, it is helpful to see what is out there , there must be quite some people with whatever handproblems..... Although I think, I am (not yet) at this point where I need special gear, it is helpful to know: before quitting PSG there are some possibilities to check out.
Glenn; I'll try.
Due to this exchange here I decided not just to complain Mad

but do something; will see the chiro next week and try to get a second opinion concerning the former nerv damage - I was told then that nothing can be done, that I just have to arrange myself with that....
If you are interessed I'll let you know how it turned out later.
Have a great time playing with your healthy hands Smile

and all the best to those who knows how it feels when there's something wrong Confused

(I am away from internet until sunday)
Ruth
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros

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