Ergonomics

Tab Tabscott · From: Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.

Playing the pedal steel hurts my back. Come to think of it, sitting in the position to do it makes most of my body parts hurt-which is why I don't do it that much any more. Well I was looking at some videos of big time players sitting behind their guitars, and it seems like I've got my guitar set up too high compared to (most of ) theirs.

When I'm sitting behind my guitar, my elbows are lower than the fretboards. When I look at a lot of you guys out there playing, it seems like your elbows are higher than your fretboards. Is this an optical illusion?

When you are pushing your pedals, are your heels on the ground? In the vids I've been looking at, it seems like sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not.

Would it be more comfortable to play with the guitar lowered down a bit? I know when I play the dobro, it's always with my elbows above the level of the fretboard.

Should you sit on the edge of your pac-a-seat, or rest more on you buttocks and thighs? I'm serious about this, this is not a crank post. (I'm a crank, but this post is not)...

Anybody have any ideas on good ergonomics for playing? Are there any rules of thumb or guidelines for making the steel more comfortable to play? I know that just moving your hand or arm just a little bit can make a world of difference on other instruments...

Thanks in advance...
Tab
www.squarenecked.com
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Tab Tabscott

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Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Hi Tab,

You've asked some very good questions. I've always believed that the same ergonomic principles that apply to computer users apply to steel guitar players. Very Happy

Here's some relevant highlights from a university ergonomic self-evaluation sheet: http://www.sjsu.edu/hr/docs/risk/forms/ergonomic_worksheet.pdf
Starting from the floor:
1. Thighs to be about parallel to floor and lower legs to be about perpendicular
2. Trunk to be about perpendicular to floor (not leaning forward/backward).
3. Shoulders and upper arms to be about perpendicular to floor (not stretched forward) and relaxed (not elevated).
4. Upper arms and elbows to be close to body (not extended outward).
5. Forearms, wrists, and hands to be straight and parallel to floor (not pointing up/down).
6. Wrists and hands to be straight (not bent up/down or sideways toward little finger).

------------------------------------
SUGGESTIONS
Here's what I have found works well for me, and what I have recommended for students:
1. ADJUST SEAT HEIGHT: Get a seat with adjustable legs. I used a drummer’s stool for several years, but now use a Stag All Terrain Seat (ATS) made for hunters. ($99 from Quake Industries). It has adjustable legs, a backrest, and is lightweight and sturdy (rated at 500 lbs.).
Adjust the legs so that your legs fit comfortably under your steel, your thighs are parallel with the floor, and your elbows are as parallel as possible with the plane of the strings on your steel guitar (see #6 below).
One of the reasons I do not use a pack-seat is because the legs are not easily adjustable. If you can’t afford an adjustable seat, use cushions to adjust the height of your seat. Good ergonomics starts with your seat height.

2. USE BACK SUPPORT: I use the backrest on the Stag ATS seat to remind me to keep my back straight and perpendicular to the floor. The seat portion is small, so there is no need to perch on the edge of it.

3. KEEP SHOULDERS STRAIGHT: The ATS stool is small and lightweight so it can be moved as close to the steel guitar as you prefer; no need to lean forward.

4. UPPER ARMS: Other SGF threads have pointed out the value of keeping one’s upper arms close to your body; to keep your hands and wrists in the proper position.

5. FOREARM ANGLE: Forearms should be parallel to the plane of the strings on your steel guitar, elbows should never be lower than the strings.
Because the distance between shoulder and elbow varies from one person to another, it may be necessary to tip your steel slightly forward by raising the back legs of the guitar as a micro-adjustment.

6. HAND & WRIST ANGLE: This is the primary goal. If all of the above adjustments are correct, your relaxed open hands should be able lie flat on the strings with your hand, wrist, and forearm in a straight line. This will facilitate clean palm-blocking without wrist pain.
If your wrists are bent, you may be setting yourself up for carpal-tunnel injury.

I hope this is helpful.

- Dave

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Tab,Just my opinion I don't think your question can be answered,There are so many pickers that do some things different from each other. I have seen some courses by the famous big boys that may contradict each other on certain things.[how would you know whos right ?]Don't know if you ever heard of a picker named Bobby Koefer,He was one of the great western swing and jazz players,He played with just a thumbpick and a FLAT bar,He had a very peculiar way of holding his bar,[every steel teacher would say it was 100 percent wrong] But it worked for him. The pedal steel is in it's infancy compared to some instruments that have been around forever.Don't know if anything could be written in stone at the present.Maybe each individual should find by trial and error what works best for [He or She].Sure some will disagree with me,just remember this is my opinion ONLY. Very Happy

YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.
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Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I tend to agree with Charles D.: Each person's ergonomics are specific to that person.

For example, we encounter this statement (not meaning to pick on Dave M. in particular, others have stated similarly):

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Clete, I agree—seat height and guitar height (and possibly angle) are very important, just as with a piano.

Charles and Brint, please don’t take this the wrong way—I’ve always enjoyed your posts on the Forum.
However, in this case, I think that you are both missing the point.
Mr. Tabscott asked for ideas on how to keep his back from hurting when he plays.
- He didn’t ask “What are all of the possible ways one can sit at the steel?”
- He asked, “How can I sit so that my back doesn’t hurt?”

I offered him some suggestions based on what I’ve found worked well for me. I tried to make that clear from my lead-in: “SUGGESTIONS: Here's what I have found works well for me…”
My suggestions were not meant as mandates, they were meant as a starting point, based on ergonomics research.

Years ago, I would just use a standard folding chair when I played steel, as did many other players. As I kept doing that for three or four hour gigs four or five nights a week, I started noticing that the next morning my back would hurt or my wrist would be sore. Getting older doesn’t help, and neither does being tall (6'3"). Very Happy

When I figured out that it was my non-ergonomic posture at the steel that was causing me pain, I realized that the research into the ergonomics of using a computer could offer some good ideas for playing steel more comfortably.

I am not saying that my approach is “right” and someone else’s approach is “wrong”; I’m just explaining how I solved the problem that the OP asked about.

Regarding the picture of Lloyd Green, notice how his forearm, wrist, and hand are in a straight line, and are parallel to the plane of the strings?
That's the most important part of good steel posture.

Notice how his forearms are resting on the backpad so that his arms and shoulders are relaxed?
That's pretty important, too.

However, leaning forward like Lloyd is doing in that photo would give me a backache, which is why I need a backrest to remind me to sit up straight.

I've never carefully examined where my elbows are in relation to the strings, but I've found that if I can get my forearm, wrist, and hand in a straight line and parallel to the plane of the strings, and sit up straight--it is really comfortable to play for a long gig or practice session.

Make sense?

- Dave

Tab Tabscott · From: Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.

and I am sure that there are a zillion different ways to do anything on anything. I was just wondering if there was anything glaringly wrong with the way I sit behind my guitar...I've been playing steel for nearly 40 years, but never as well as I would have liked because I never could get comfortable enough to sit behind it for hours on end to practice. I tried doing yoga, stretching, etc., and it never has felt "right".

I was looking at a Kundalini yoga book the other day, and saw how the snakes come creeping out from the base of your spine. Made me start thinking about posture and attack and whatnot for the steel. I sat 4 feet from him and watched Paul F. play in Portland in January. He didn't look uncomfortable at all.

My elbows are far below the plane of the strings on my guitar. But there's not much room to lower my guitar, my knees will hit the undercarriage...so I guess the next step is to try a taller chair...

Now Lloyds elbows are clearly far below the plae of his strings, too, but he does have a nice pillow under his forearms in that shot...

Thanks for all the input-you guys are the greatest.
Tab
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Tab Tabscott

Play nice.

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Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I produced a video years ago called the "Mechanical Advantage" which addressed all of these issues. Tab, even though you may not have seen it, many times these become self evident as time and attention to deal arise.

Larry Behm

http://www.aracnet.com/~lcbehm/
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Tab Tabscott · From: Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.

Larry old friend-
You know, I vaguely remember that tape, man that was a long time ago...probably nearly 20 years. I think I forgot everything on there.

I remember one Thanksgiving in about '93 you came by my house when you were in town for Thanksgiving or something...Say hi to Patty!
Tab
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Tab Tabscott

Play nice.

They is none else.

Glenn Uhler · From: Trenton, New Jersey, USA

I think Dave is on the right track. I give out hundreds of ergonomics pamphlets for office workers every year. There are some similarities between typing and PSG, and some differences.

The typists keyboard and keyboard tray are 1 1/2 to 2" thick. The PSG is 4 to 6" thick. The ideal position for the keyboard tray is on top of the thighs. The ideal position for the player should also be just above the thighs. That puts the typists hands about 2" above their thighs. Any way you slice it, the players hand are going to be 2 to 4" higher. The higher you go, the closer you get to the "praying mantis" position, which is not good.
Your elbows should also be at about 90 deg.

The seats being made today should have adjustable lumbar supports. We are all different sizes and shapes, so we need to be able to adjust the height of the support and the angle of the seat back, just like in a car.
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Elton Smith · From: Texas, USA

I use an adjustable office chair.I may raise or lower it several time during a show,or practice.That way I don't have to fool with the guitar.
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Tab Tabscott · From: Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.

Thanks Dave, for pointing to the adjustable ATS seat. I ordered one a while back and it finally came yesterday.

My pac-a-seat had a seat height of 18 inches. My body has a height of 6 feet 3 inches...with calves that measure 21 inches from floor to center of my knee. I set the legs on the ATS hunters seat at 22 inches and it made a huge difference in the comfort level. My elbows are above the plane of the strings, and I played it for a couple of hours yesterday without any discomfort. (except to my ears). I did not adjust the guitars height at all...pretty amazing, Im just sorry I didn't address this before.

Thanks to all who chimed in on my question...
Tab
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Tab Tabscott

Play nice.

They is none else.

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I love it when a plan comes together.

Tab is a really really good steel player and Dobro player. Can't wait to hear the results this new chair has on his playing.

Larry Behm
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I have made this statement on the formum before and will say it again. "You don't sit down at a steel guitar, you put it on like a shirt or pair of pants". If a seat is to high or to low you will have back or leg problems. If your pack seat is to low when you get a comfortable height on an adjustable seat take that height and add height to your pack seat till it is equal. I have cut legs off for some and on the pipe legged seats turn or carve a shoulder on a piece of hard wood and Epoxy it in each leg a little long then trim to fit your self. Good Luck and Happy Steelin

Tab Tabscott · From: Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.

Holy crow! Playing the steel is really a lot of fun! Especially when it doesn't hurt! It really used to be pure torture to sit behind the thing, let alone sitting there for a whole gig.

So Brooks brought my old blonde Carter D-10 back to me yesterday. The guy I had sold it to, Bill Hannah, died a few years ago and Brooks inherited it. So here, 10 years later, it's back and really clean.
The thing sat in the case since 2001. My 8 year old boy is apparently fascinated by the thing and he wants me teach him "a class every day so he can get good on it". I'm so totally down with that. I told him he could have it-just gotta make sure I get it dialed in right for him...

Tab
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Tab Tabscott

Play nice.

They is none else.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Im glad you can play comfortably and teach your son to play. That is a double blessing! Very Happy

Clete

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