Basic Tuning Question - Flat Thirds

Peter Fatka · From: Wisconsin, USA

Hi all. I'm new here so a quick intro: I've been playing very sporadically for 13 or 14 years, enough to find my way around a bit but not enough to be all that good at it.

I'm setting up my E9 push-pull Emmons steel (#6506, anyone know what year that would be?) and I think I'm running into a fundamental problem. I hope I can explain this. Thirds don't sound in tune to me unless they're slightly flat, but when I tune them as such, other intervals start to get screwed up. My G#s for instance end up being about 10 or 15 cents flat. No real problem there, but things go wrong when I get into setting up the pedals and levers. The C# (5a) needs to be a little flat for the open A chord (6b-5a-4-3b) to sound right. Then when I tune the F# (7) string so an open F#m (7-6b-5a) sounds right suddenly it's getting pretty flat of a real F# and sounds pretty crummy when I do a major scale run of 8 7 6 6b 5 5a. That's just one example but hopefully you get what I'm getting at.

So how is this normally handled? Should I be tuning my thirds up to nominal pitch even though it sounds off to me? Do I learn how to set this thing up with a complex set of compromise tunings?

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Peter, you are about to receive a few pages of replies debating Just vs Tempered vs every known tuning system used by our various heroes.

In the "normal"Just 12-tone tuning system, the 3rds are 15 cents flat. When the choir sings and the orchestra plays and there's no piano around, they'll be in a Just tuning. When there's a piano involved, they'll all have to adjust to the tempered tuning on the piano.

So what that means on the pedal steel is, because there are at least several different triads available, if you are not going to tune them all in tempered, which I personally think sounds terrible, a Just variation is probably what you're going to end up with. Just and tempered 5ths are really similar, it's the 3rd and 6ths that are the biggest problem, as you've discovered and they like to be around 15 cents flat.

I do a kind of "hybrid" tuning with E, B and the 1st string F# at 0, the G#s, the 2nd string D# and my 9th string, which I tune to C#, are all -15 cents. My 7th string F# is around -10 cents, which "splits the difference" between being in tune with B and C#.

The pedal C#s are -18, the pedal As are -7 the knee Ebs are around -10 and the pedal F is around -30. For starters. Keep in mind that you're going to be moving the bar and making slight adjustments with it which will help cover up intonation issues.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

The subject of how to tune a steel guitar gets debated on the forum from time to time, and the discussion can quickly get toxic. I suggest you read old threads, and even Wikipedia, regarding the following terms:

"Equal Temperament"
"Just Intonation"
"Mean-tone Temperament"

I decline to join in any more of these debates, but if your ear is telling your that the thirds sound out-of-tune unless they are tuned flat, then you are probably a candidate to look carefully at Just Intonation or Mean-tone Temperament.

No matter what tuning method you adopt, you must develop your ear, your left hand bar placement, and constantly focus on playing in tune. A perfectly tuned steel, no matter which tuning method is used, is meaningless if the player has poor left hand skills, a poor ear, or is just not paying attention.

Regarding your Emmons, my PP is 6698 and I was told by Rebecca Lashley of the Emmons Company that it was built in 1983. Your guitar is probably a year or two earlier than mine. Should be a great guitar if it's set up properly.

Welcome to the forum.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

There are myriads of ways to go about this and you will find as many opinions as responders. You can tune the A note(s) straight up to 440 with the A and B pedals engaged and then tune the E's to the A note so that the beats are gone then tune the rest of the changes pretty much to the E's getting rid of the beats. Or simpler so- tune everything straight up and live with the beats- perhaps flatting the 3rd's (G#'s)just a titch or something in between. If I'm practicing pretty much by myself I'll get rid of the beats and when with a band pretty much straight up. You can do a search on the forum and find countless opinions. Some strobe tuners like the Peterson come with pre-programmed E9 and C6 tunings built in. The F#'s (string #'s 1 and 7 in the E9th tuning) commonly have a little gadget called a compensator on them to allow for them to be in tune both with no pedals and then slightly flat with the pedals engaged. And then there is the harmonic way.....

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Excellent Paul. That's something that's not on any beginner video, and absolutely should be the first thing to be learned and understood.

John Peay · From: Cumming, Georgia USA

Peter....all great suggestions. As a recent PSG beginner with some music background, one of the first things I did was soak up as much info on tuning "theory" as I could, since I wanted to "Get tuned up asap and start playing!".

I finally settled on Larry Bell's hybrid tuning method. A bit similar to chas smith's method above, Larry's is a hybrid between JI and ET, but it takes into account cabinet drop of your guitar (tune E's straight-up with pedals down, common with many methods).

Here is a link to Larry's method (which I have termed "Bell-Tone Tuning"!), as well as some good background info on tuning and how it relates to the PSG. Larry will take you step-by-step through tuning your guitar, all you need is a $20 chromatic tuner (ok, that's a whole 'nother thread there!).

Again, Larry's is one of a basically infinite spectrum of ways to tune a pedal steel. But it sure helped me get past the "tuning thing" and set a consistent method of tuning my guitar.

http://www.larrybell.org/id29.htm

Things vary based on different guitars, different ears, different bands (or playing alone), etc. etc. so as always YMMV...

Happy Pickin' !

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I prefer 'tampered tuning'
Cool

_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Larry, I had a tamper tentrum the last time I tried to tune.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Peter Fatka · From: Wisconsin, USA

Holy Cow! 12 hours later and look at all this info. This is awesome. For 14 years it's felt like I was the only one in the world who played one of things. I didn't even have to be any good for everybody to want me to join their band!

It'll take me a bit to soak all this in. sorry to bring up a sore subject. I didn't know how to search for this issue (thanks Paul). Searching tune or tunning pretty much brings up every post on this forum.

I have to admit I'm sort of relieved to find out it's not just me. This explains so much...how I can think I have the steel set up reasonably well and then struggle mightily to sound in tune with a band. I will have to experiment with the various tuning methods and see what I like. At least I should be pretty good at setting up my steel by the time I settle on something.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Just remember that tuning your guitar and playing in tune are two different skills. Developing a good ear for pitch recognition and, simply put, learning what 'in tune' sounds like, is very important for both.

For example, if you are playing a 3-note chord and something sounds off, you can back off to two notes and make it through the song until you can touch up your tuning. It all comes with developing your ear to recognize tuning problems and then knowing what to do with that information. All this happens in 'real time' so you need to learn to adjust quickly, as you are playing, even when your guitar is in 'perfect tune' (whatever THAT is). A few millimeters of bar misplacement can sound REALLY BAD.

Experience is the best teacher. Most guys who spend a lot of time on the bandstand with other musicians will learn to play in tune. Otherwise they won't spend much time onstage with good musicians. Smile

_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Peter, you're in the right place.

You noted that flattening some thirds fouls other intervals.

On the PSG, you can tune a few positions , or a least a couple to accommodate flatted thirds. Then you have the problems of out of scale notes and/or accidentals. A lot more things are fouled by it than fixed. It's just a mater of math..

A great many of us tune "Straight Up", and adjust things on the fly over the years, when and if there are things we consider to be "too bright".

Also, a great many of us have either played "straight up" instruments, or tuned and played the PSG "Straight up" that flattened thirds sound dull.

I look for a major chord to contain the 6hz "wobble", or to me it's not bright enough. There are MANY chords like a dom7 maj7 aug4 that have massive "wobble" and yet are accepted/

In the "Forum Archives", the "Tempered Tuning Armageddon" has some good comments. Some by Buddy Emmons.

It's a good read.

Incidentally that 6hz "wobble" amazingly goes way low in a chord with a root and a fifth, and at stage volume things change a lot too.

Read on, and enjoy. remembering that it's always going to be your own ears that you play your tuning to.

Smile

EJL

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Peter you could always get a Peterson Stroboflip tuner and use the E9th pedal steel presets which already cater for offset notes.... this will get you very close to the ball park, and then you can tweak it a bit if you need it ! very helpful tuner for someone starting out, and pro's alike - especially trying to tune in a noisy environment.

http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=37&sub=21
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Doc Hall · From: Galveston, Tx

I, too, have found Larry Bell's tuning approach to be most helpful. I wanted something that was quick, easy to remember, and a good approximate. It always gets me in the ballpark when I'm playing with a band. I still have to focus on playing in tune and minimizing my own incompetence. That's a full time job in itself! At least, tuning isn't time consuming now.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Plus 1 for Larry Bell's tuning method.

If you look at JI and ET as the extreme end-points of a scale, Larry Bell's "tampered tuning" sits right in the middle, halfway between JI and ET. Close enough to JI to make it easy to play in tune with harmony singers -- and close enough to ET to make it easy to play in tune with 6-stringers. And like any good tuning method (and unlike most pre-written charts), it corrects for the cabinet drop of the particular guitar you're tuning.

Peter Fatka · From: Wisconsin, USA

Quick question about the Peterson Stroboflip: can it show you how many cents off of concert pitch you are on the fly, or do you you need to program any custom temperaments in first before tuning to them?

I used a Korg DT-7 tuner to set up A/B/C pedals. The DT-7 only has LEDS in 6.66 cent increments but you can kind of extrapolate where you are by how bright adjacent LEDs are. I've started out trying Larry Bell's method and so far I really like it a lot (Thanks Larry!) I like the lively-ness of the thirds not being tuned compleatly beat-less. The only difference so far is I find I have to tune the C pedal F# about 8 cents low or it doesn't sound good to me. This ends up working out nicely though because I have almost that much cabinet drop in my 7th string F# when pressing the B&C pedals.

I have the levers to set up yet, and of course, I need to try this with a band. I let y'all know how it goes. Thanks again everyone for shedding some light on this tuning thing. Not knowing any better, I had been trying to tune beat-less for the last 14 years and dealing with the problems that come with that.

Peter Fatka · From: Wisconsin, USA

So one thing I'm noticing now, when pressing just the a pedal I get significantly more cabinet drop in the 6th string G# than I do the 3 string G#. This is probably the most common way for me to play minor chords and the 6th string sounds pretty bad with it. Is this a common problem? Do I just have to avoid the 6th string unless I play a two note chord where a can make a bar adjustment?

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

A wound 6th string will detune a lot less than a plain 6th. So if you can tune the changes for a wound 6th string and don't mind the change in sound, it may solve your problem.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Wow, Peter, you must have a lot of cabinet drop on that 6th string if the minor chord is unusable. How many cents does it drop when you step on the A-pedal?

If it's more than, say, 6 or 7 cents, you should think about following Georg's advice and try a wound string.

If I understand your tuning method, you have it tuned like this:

5th String with A-pedal = -8 cents
6th String = -4 cents (this is before stepping on A-pedal)

By stepping on the A-pedal, it causes that 6th string to drop a number of cents. Since it's starting out tuned to -4, if it were to drop, say, 4 more cents, that would put it at -8. This would be ideal; both the root and the fifth of the minor chord would now be -8 cents.

Even if your steel has as much as 6 cents cabinet drop on the 6th string, it should sound decent tuned to those offsets. More than 6 cents? Maybe some P/P experts can weigh in with suggestions for mechanical tweaks.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Peter: Your comment about the sixth string going flat when you press the A pedal caused me to check out my Push-Pull. Much to my surprise, mine does it too!! The sixth string goes flat much more than the third string. (I use a 22 plain sixth string.) It is audible when I chime the sixth string at the twelfth fret versus the 3rd string open. Also, the C# minor chord using the A pedal on strings 8, 6, and 5, or 6, 5 & 4 is noticeably out of tune.

However, I haven't noticed this problem while playing, and I haven't noticed the problem in recordings. I think good bar placement (splitting the difference between the sharp and flat pitches), and a well developed vibrato, solves many of our perceived tuning problems.

I wonder if I have been subconsciously avoiding the sixth string when using the A pedal. I also wonder what a new Emmons, with the counter-force device on the E9 neck, would be like to play. Too bad I'm broke.

(I just played for a bit and I absolutely do NOT avoid the sixth string when using the A pedal alone.
I use the string, in combination with the others, all the time, and I really don't notice intonation problems as I play.)

I use a Peterson Strobo-Flip and the sweetened settings (SE9 & SC6) work well for me. I haven't seen any reason to customize the settings.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

With regard to the term "tampered tuning" ---> Click Here

Peter Fatka · From: Wisconsin, USA

My 6th string is a plain 20. I've been using the GHS E9 set. If I can trust what my Korg DT-7 is telling me, it's going 6-8 cents flat when I press the a pedal, so it ends up -10 to -12 overall. Not sure what the 3rd string G# drops to but it ends up sounding ok with the minor chord. If anything it doesn't drop quite far enough so I end twisting the bar differnt directions for the 3-4-5 vs. the 4-5-6. The problem I get with the 4-5-6 is I have to twist so much to get the 4 & 6 (root/5th) that the 5 (third) starts to sound pretty bad.

I'll try a wound there sometime. I find that the 6th string has the most tuning problems anyway, being the biggest plain. It has the most "Bahwowwwng" to it. In the meantime I'll experiment with adjustments to tuning and just trying to get better at hitting the right compromises with the bar on the fly.

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

A small unwound string detunes less than a larger one. For wound strings, the core determines how much physical tension is required to move the note a certain musical interval.

The 3rd string is 011 or 012 and the 6th is 020 or 022. The throw to pull from G# to A on the 3rd is nearly double that of the 6th. THAT ALSO MEANS THAT THE SIXTH DETUNES MUCH MORE.

It cracks me up that folks compare how much cab drop their guitar has without specifying what string / what gauge / what pedals pushed. If you use an unwound sixth, it WILL detune more than any other string.
=====>EDIT<======
I have to raise and lower the sixth a whole tone or more so A WOUND SIXTH string is not an option for me.

FWIW. Before we had sophisticated measurement devices worthy of a physics lab, folks just lived with it.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

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