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Topic: Chords, Shades of Embellishment |
Stuart Legg
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 1:38 am |
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There are hundreds and hundreds of chord forms that can be played on a pedal steel guitar, the truth is that most of these chord forms are simply embellished variations of a few more basic chord forms. In other words, it is not really necessary to learn all of the chord forms.
Chords, by themselves, have about as much value as the words in a dictionary,. Words take on more meaning when they are used in sentences and chords take on more meaning when they are used in progressions.
I would like to hear about the chord forms you use frequently in your playing and which chord forms you feel are absolutely necessary in your chord repertoire. |
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Joseph Carlson
From:
Grass Valley, California, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 8:21 am
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| According to Joe Pass there are only three types of chords, major, minor and dominants. He says that diminished chords can be seen as 7b9s and augmented as 7#5 chords. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 9:30 am
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| As someone who writes for a living, I find it somewhat useful to know the meaning of more than just a few words. Obviously you can get through life very well by just pointing at things and grunting, call it the ZZ Top/linguistic analogy - and people who do know words will then use piles of them discussing the emotional range of the variety of grunts - but it would seem to me that if you were interested in communicating something with music beyond your basic food/shelter/sex/drugs "needs", it wouldn't hurt to know more chords. I have heard it said that in "when it comes down to it, it's ALL just three chords" but I'm sure that that's just someone trying to discuss their own inanity and ignorance, because there are several progressions that need four chords. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 9:54 am
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| Quote: |
| I have heard it said that in "when it comes down to it, it's ALL just three chords" but I'm sure that that's just someone trying to discuss their own inanity and ignorance, because there are several progressions that need four chords. |
From a players point of view, keeping it "simple" means I can focus on how it's being played. A chart with a lot of "altered chords" can look daunting. Years ago, when I was a student, we were talking to George Benson and he said that one of the huge moments was when he realized that an A-7b5 chord was an Fdom9 and that changed everything. |
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Joseph Carlson
From:
Grass Valley, California, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 12:50 pm
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| I don't think Joe Pass was trying to discuss his own inanity and ignorance. Not 3 chords, 3 chord types. It refers to the function of the chord in the progression. You can have a A13#11b9, but the function of the chord in the progression is what is important, in this case acting as a dominant chord. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 1:11 pm
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I was not referring to Mr. Pass, rather to the people who claim that jazz music progressions are only blues with chord extensions, and others who feel that melodic invention is always either related to the church modes, or no good at all. Denying the existence of AABA 64-bar structures, 'cause I can't count that high. And if I can't understand something, it must be useless....
There is a very large amount of music quite unrelated to blues these days that passes under the "jazz" label, because there's just no other category for it. The Scandinavian countries are seething with great music, there's clearly more of a classical influence with some 60's freedom applied, but you can sift through a pile of ECM artists without finding blues. For many people, including some other good jazz artists, this means it's categorically worthless. I've never felt that Oregon, Mahavishnu or "real" Indian music was the blues, but to deny it's feeling requires a very narrow and opaque set of filters. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 3:49 pm
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Chas: I apologize if I missed something (again), but regarding your George Benson quote: doesn't Amin7b5 mean that the fifth (E) becomes D#, but an Fdom9 chord contains a D natural? Since George - and you - certainly know more theory than I do, I would greatly appreciate understanding what it is that I misunderstood.
Thanks for your very knowledgeable comments; I love theory, but I can't claim the grasp you have.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 5:17 pm
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Major, minor, diminished and augmented triads are all I need to make music. It is amazing how much mileage you can get out of a major triad: a lifetime's worth.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 6:56 pm
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It is the added tension of the F note in the substituted F9 chord that makes this sound so good.
Looking at it in terms of an Arpeggio or Mode.
It is much easier thinking in terms of a Mixolydian Mode where only the one note is altered from the major scale as compared to Phrygian Mode where 5 notes are altered.
Am7b5 = 1.b3..5.b7
F9 ==== 3..5 b7..9
A Phrygian Mode .... 1.b2.b3.4.b5.b6.b7
F Mixolydian Mode .. 3.4...5..6.b7..1..2 |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 7:42 pm
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You can think of it as the Bb Major scale. If you know your chord tones, it doesn't matter what you call the scale. The F9 is the V7 of Bb and the A-7b5 is the vii of Bb. Works for me.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 8:47 pm
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Stuart, one chord form I use a lot on 6 string and on C6, not so much on E9, is the half diminished. On C6 you can get all 4 inversions of it on strings 3-4-5-6 (with interesting extensions on other strings) with pedal 5, pedal 6, pedal 4 + lever raising C to C# and pedals 5 + 6 + C to C# raise. I like it so much I'm working on behind-the-bar pulls to get it on my steel that doesn't have the C-C# raise.
I like it because a) I flat out love the sound and have ever since I learned about the chord as a teenager more years ago than I care to admit and b) it is amazingly versatile. It functions as a ii chord based on the root (D half dim is ii in C min; works as a chromatically altered ii in C maj); as a 9th chord in major/blues (E half dim is C9); as a b9 b13 in jazzy chromatic contexts (Bb half dim is C b9 b13) and as subdominant (D half dim again is F min add 6 which is iv in C min; A half dim is i add 6 in C min). And in every one of those contexts it sounds majorly cool. |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 29 Apr 2011 8:56 pm
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| Daniel Morris wrote: |
Chas: I apologize if I missed something (again), but regarding your George Benson quote: doesn't Amin7b5 mean that the fifth (E) becomes D#, but an Fdom9 chord contains a D natural? Since George - and you - certainly know more theory than I do, I would greatly appreciate understanding what it is that I misunderstood.
Thanks for your very knowledgeable comments; I love theory, but I can't claim the grasp you have. |
Daniel, I think the Eb in the Am7b5 that you call a D#, in the context of an Fdom9, is really an Eb or the 7th of the Fdom9. You are right that D natural is an extension that can be part of an Fdom9 -- it would be the 13 or add 6 and would sound fine with the Eb as long as it is voiced correctly (either close voiced with D/Eb right next to one another or with the Eb below the D). |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2011 2:32 am
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Thanks, Jim.
I was thinking flat 5, rather than flat 7.
So A-7b5 is: A - C - E - G, Fdom9 is F - A - C - G, then? A buddy of mine is walking me through things like flatted fifths that I never really contemplated, but find I have indeed used.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Apr 2011 7:53 am
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| Daniel Morris wrote: |
Thanks, Jim.
I was thinking flat 5, rather than flat 7.
So A-7b5 is: A - C - E - G, Fdom9 is F - A - C - G, then? A buddy of mine is walking me through things like flatted fifths that I never really contemplated, but find I have indeed used. |
A-7b5 aka Am7b5 is A - C - Eb - G. Fdom9 (which implies F7 with a 9th added) is F - A - C - Eb - G. So the Am7b5 is identical to the top 4 pitches of the F9. (A C E G is Am7.) |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2011 12:55 pm
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Thanks very much, Jim.
Sometimes I just don't get all my ducks, er, notes in a row properly. Originally I had indeed thought it was a flatted fifth; usually better to go with that first idea. (The reason I put it as D# was to be consistent with the key signature of A). And I shouldn't post such things so early in the morning - I end up sounding dumber than I am......
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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