Can You Add Split Tuning To Sho-Buds?

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i know screws can be added to many all pull changers for the split tuning feature. is it possible to adapt this concept to rack and barrel models such as the professionals and 6139s?

if so can someone explain it?
thanx.

Jay Fagerlie · From: Lotus, California, USA

Got somethin' in mind there, Buddy?
Jay

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

You can do it on an all-pull by adding an extra raise rod. I don't have my all-pull any more to check exactly how this is done. but there was a very good diagram of this on the Carter site, or if you search the forum there are threads about it. Rack-and-Barrel is all-pull, so it can probably be done. Good luck!

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I admit I'm no expert on this but I do know that even though a rack & barrel steel is technically an all pull changer, there is only one pull rod per string. There is no place to add an extra pull rod in the same way as a multiple raise and lower/bell crank system.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

right, rick. that's the question. is there a way on the single rod system to achieve this?

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Not really...
What I have seen done is replacing the changer finger of the string you want to split with a 2/1 or 2/2 Bud finger.
FWIW, my r&b always seemed to split just fine on its own, even though the split wasn't discreetly tuneable.
Just lucky, I guess.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

As Skip said, it can be achieved by timing your pulls or using a "mechanical half stop".
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CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

see below

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Perhaps a better idea would be to leave the Sho-Bud intact, and (assuming you can afford it) get a new Jackson that will have that same vintage 'Bud sound, with modern mechanics.

If you drill any holes in the Bud, you'll diminish its value.
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CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

richard burton · From: Britain

Just thinking out loud here Very Happy

Splits can be accomplished on steels with a spare raise hole, so if there is no available hole an alternative must be found.

Could some sort of adjustable gizmo be fastened to the raise rod at one end, and be connected to the lowering knee lever at the other?

Then, the open note and the raised note can be tuned the usual way, the split note can be tuned by operating the pedal and knee lever at the same time, (using the regular lowering tuner at the endplate), and the low note can be tuned by activating the knee lever and adjusting the aforementioned gizmo that is attached to the raise rod.

Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

Here's one way to do it. But it does require drilling and tapping the changer housing.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

If you can't tune a "feel-stop" against existing pulls in your copedant, install a simple NON-INVASIVE mechanical halfstop--where you need it--works on rack&barrel systems, too. See the arrow. You should not have to do any mysterious drilling in your changer to accomplish this, at least a HALFSTOP.

_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net

Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

I thought Chris was asking about tuning splits rather than half stops.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Me too. A "feel" half-stop is sort of a "poor relation" of a split. The feel stop is, well, a touchy thing: you have to set the right resistance (and practice assiduously) so that you can confidently hit the half-stop without overshooting it, even quickly in the heat of battle, yet can also move smoothly through it to the whole-step change without a "hitch" in the gliss. A split doesn't have that to worry about.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Well, Somebody maybe could give a good clear definition of a "split" vs. a half stop then? I'd gladly like to know the difference then. Always ready to learn even more. Smile

A mechanical "halfstop" can be tuned dead-on. I don't see it as "crude".
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Well, from my understanding, a split is accomplished by adding the effects of 2 pedals or levers together to get a 3rd note not possible without it. A half stop only affects one lever (or pedal, but I have never been able to feel the half stop on a pedal, and I have tried) by having a tunable (hopefully) stop halfway in it's travel.

But, I assume you already knew that.

I could see a half stop on a change like the 6th string lower to F# to get a tunable G note without having to split it with the B pedal. But I can't see a half stop on the "A" pedal to get a tunable C note without having to split it with a Bb lever. I think the foot is probably less sensitive to the feel of the half stop than the knee (or leg) is. I could never get used to the feel of a half stop on a vertical knee lever either.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

forgive my "confusion" between the half stop & split tuning
"mechanical half stop" was what caught my attention
Bob Tuttle seems to have the most logical answer

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I saw that one that Schild has. Impressive. Would love to try it sometime. I will also say that the Sho~Bud half stop in the pic James posted is probably my favorite of all that I have tried. I never really liked the method of trying to time another string pull to get the half stop. Just not enough resistance for me. And in my case where there is also a pull on the C6th neck, if I tried to use the D to C# change on the 9th E9th string for the half stop feel point, I could always feel 2 places that could be the half stop, and this on guitars set up at the factory. This has caused me to abandon the D to C# change on string 9. But the Carter uses a separate "half finger" for tuning the half stop, which also makes me feel 2 places where the additional pulls take place.

But, this thread is about "split tuning", and we should probably wander back on topic. Sorry guys.
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Richard (Burton), can you come up with a drawing that would illustrate the concept you described?

Bob, I'm curious: in your pics, there seem to be split tuning screws for strings 5, 6, and 9. What does the one on string 9 do?

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

bob..that's exactly what i'm talking about. my friend wanted to know if it was possible your way. it looks as if it is. did you drill these yourself and how do you know exactly where the screw should hit the finger. i assume these would adjust the same as my zum splits?

would it be possible to have my friend email you to get more info on the process? thanx!

plus, i notice yours is a slightly later model with nylon end tuners...probably at least double raise/lower. his steel is single raise/lower rack and barrel, but i'm hoping it might work the same.

and for you who wouldn't alter an old bud...i certainly would if it meant being able to incorporate the split-tuning feature which has been one of the best advancements in changer design ..showing up commercially around 1980.
steels are for playing, not selling.

Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

This guitar is an old round-front Sho-Bud single 10. It was rebuilt by Leon Roberts some time before I got it and I assume he added the split tuning screws. He put a triple raise, double lower changer in it and 14 hole bellcranks. The 9th string screw can be used to balance the feel stop on the 2nd string lower. I'm not using it right now as I am only lowering the 2nd to D.

richard burton · From: Britain

I have never seen a rack and barrel Shobud, so could be way off beam here Very Happy

Further to my previous post, I have realised that my adjustable gizmo already exists, and could be easily fitted.

Say it is the fifth string that has a full tone raise, and a half tone lower.

Make the raise rod go from the changer finger, through the raise hole on the bellcrank that is on the knee lever cross-shaft that does the lowering, then have an adjustable barrel, then carry the rod on through the raise hole of the A pedal bellcrank, then have another adjustable barrel.

Have the lowering rod go from the changer finger, through the lowering hole in the knee lever bellcrank, then put on an adjustable barrel.

To tune:

Tune string open (B) (at keyhead)

Press and hold the A pedal, and tune the string to C# using the endplate raise tuner.

Keep pressing the A pedal, and activate the knee lever that lowers the string a half tone.
Tune the note to C using the endplate lower tuner.

Release everything.

Activate the knee lever, and the note will probably be flat of Bb.

Bring it up to Bb by turning the adjustable barrel tuner (the first barrel that I mentioned in this post)

As I say, I have never seen a r+b steel, so this could all be nonsense Shocked

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Depends on what you want to split. I have a first year LDG with barrels behind 2 hole pullers... more or less the same pull train as a Rack and Barrel. I lower 6 to F# and can split it with the B pedal to get the G for the pedals down 7th. I just added a raise rod and barrel on the lever that lowers 6. Tune the G note with the pedals down using the lower tuner, release the pedals and the lever, re engage the lever. The lower will be flat, use the raise to bring it back to pitch. When the B pedal is engaged the rack on the lower lever will not engage the raise barrel. Kind of fiddly and barrel placement is critical, but it works. I use a .022p string. I haven't tried other splits....

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Well Richard, without seeing it, you got it right.... I was writing my post while you were posting.

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