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Topic: SD-10 Cabinet drop ????????????? |
David Biggers
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 8:03 am |
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I was just wondering is there anything I can do to reduce this effect?
Why is there any cabinet drop?
What causes it?
Is it fixable?
It seems like a lot of different guitars I have played and tried to tune have this effect.
Tuning A/B pedal down seems to help.
Thanks for your feedback and knowledge.... |
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David Biggers
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 8:05 am
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Oh can you please reply via email. This way I can see your responses on my Blackberry while I am away from my computer.
Thanks again... |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 8:46 am
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I have always felt that a consuming concern over "cabinet drop" is just making a mountain out of a molehill. If you are THAT accurate with your bar on the strings, then cabinet drop might be a concern.
I use my tuner to check the strings, not to check for cabinet drop.  |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 12:07 pm
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| yeah..there is too much concern about this. i wouldn't worry til i can at least play as well as others did 40 years ago. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 12:11 pm
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Chris,
Glad you agree.  |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 12:14 pm
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| "Cabinet Drop" Much ado about nothing. IMO |
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autry andress
From:
Plano, Tx.
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 12:20 pm Fessy
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Hey David
Are you Talking about the Fessy? If you are I tune my 4th string 441 & the 8th 442 almost. I made up
up my own tunning chart. To be in tune with the guitar. Works for me on my Fessy. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 12:58 pm
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I agree with all of you that cabinet drop is much ado about nothing or making a mountain out of a molehill or whatever the case may be.
David asked about the why, the what and is it fixable.
So I will try to answer your questions as best I can,
David.
The why is: When you mash a couple of pedals, many of the components on the steel tends to want to flex a bit. The body bends in the middle, thereby slackening the strings that are not affected by said pedals.
The changer shaft might also bend in the middle, depending on the dimensions and quality - thereby slackening the same strings.
The tightening of the strings might pull or twist the changer anchoring and also the key head anchoring.
We aren't talking about any big flexing here, but it does not take much to slacken a string by 3 or 4 cents.
Is it fixable? Hardly. Unless you re-build a guitar from the ground up
DO you attempt to fix it? I would say no. Work with what you got. Tune your guitar so that it sounds in tune to your ears, both the guitar alone and in a band situation. It is possible to get it sounding great. I don't know your level of experience. If you are new to this, I would suggest you tune to the last Jeff Newman chart. As you gain experience, you will find yourself tweaking and trying different things and arriving at a standard for you and your guitar.
You are on the right track. Tuning the 4th and 8th strings with A&B down makes sense.
In the meantime, don't fret over it, spend more time practicing and playing than worrying about cab drop.
Almost every guitar has it. We don't hear too many out-of-tune guitars on a record. 
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 1:21 pm
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| Making sure that the endplate screws and keyhead screws are tight will help. Most all of the guitars I've ever seen are in the acceptable range. I like Chris's comment. The master players never had electronic tuners. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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David Biggers
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 3:29 pm
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Thanks everyone for your imput.
I wasn't concerned about it until Mickey Adams commented about the amount of cabinet drop my Pedalmaster SD-10 had. It is now aparent to me when playing it especially if I don't fine tune it with the A B Pedals down.
I took both of my guitars and noticed some of the underside screws had became loose. The Pedalmaster get played out on gigs almost every weekend and has for about 3 years so it was starting to feel the pain.
I am going to install underside brackets on the cabinets to help with this issue.
I was excited to get my Fessy and can now give my $2800.00 all laq. two tone 2003 SD-10 Low Profile Classic Pedalmaster a long deserved break and get her all tuned up for another 3 year bout with the elements.
Thanks guys |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 4:11 pm
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| Quote: |
If you are THAT accurate with your bar on the strings, then cabinet drop might be a concern.
I use my tuner to check the strings, not to check for cabinet drop. |
Don't know about the OP, but I don't use a tuner for anything on a PSG and cabinet drop and other detuning is a big concern. No problem playing live or do recordings on a PSG that detunes a little, or listen to one that does, as the sensitivity of my hearing is usually lowered enough by ambient noise to mask out the varying beating caused by detuning or less than perfect intonation.
Practicing on my own is a different matter, and no method or degree of tuning can mask out a PSG's detuning and varying beating when I try to intonate just THAT accurate in a quiet setting.
Now I've got one PSG that doesn't detune audible (no change in beating) in any setting, and three PSGs (different brands) that detune too much to be worthwhile practicing on. The only "fix" I have found to work for the three weak PSGs so far, is to wear -40db earplugs while practicing so I can't hear their horrible beating 
Personally I don't care how insignificant others think the cabinet drop problem is today or was yesterday ... most PSGs I've had my hands and feet on detune too much for my liking, and that doesn't change no matter what anyone says or plays.
Old and new recordings don't mean anything in this context either, as they don't let through the really low frequencies where the detuning (change in beating) is easiest to hear, and in the main tone-range studio retakes, vibrato and/or filtering "correct" the rest. If it sounded too bad they most likely would "correct" it or remove it.
Must be a reason why detuning seem to bother me more than so many others here, but that's no big deal. To me the actual problem can only be dealt with in one of two ways...
1: the PSG in question gets cured to a degree so cabinet drop and other detuning no longer bother me in a quiet setting.
2: if the first way doesn't work, the PSG in question gets stashed away, sold or trashed. |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 20 Jan 2011 4:32 pm Drop
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Dave you can bring it over to my house and lets take a look at the undercarriage...i can check all the stops, and nuts and bolts etc...are you seeing a lot of drop on your StroboFlip?...Some guitars are definitely worse than others. Del and I have had many a discussion about this. All guitars have SOME...In certain positions and chord forms this may cause you some tonal distress...LOL..At any rate, just like everyone else says...it can be managed. We can work out a custom sweetener for your stroboflip if needed....Mick
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Jason Hull
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 4:26 am
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| I wonder if anyone has tried using carbon fiber rods, or plates, to stiffen a vintage wooden cabinet... |
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John Roche
From:
England
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 5:18 am
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| I don't believe in cab drop, It's most lightly to be caused at the changer end. the rod that goes through the fingers flexes a little. why don't the the cab drop appear when you lower strings? . |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 5:42 am
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John, when you lower strings you get "cabinet raise"  |
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David Biggers
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 7:08 am
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Thanks Mickey
I might take you up on that.
I will call you and let you know. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 7:48 am
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Cab drop won't be a problem If you're just using the tuner for starting point and then tune to what you hear. Unless of course your PSG is badly in need of maintenance.
Cab drop will be the least of your tuning problems if you tune with a tuner using a one size fits all tuning method. You'll probably be so far out cab drop won't matter.
Of course if you're one of those guys that has Flipped over a Strobo with presets then between you and I we know everything about tuning. You know everything except that a lot of you flip tuners are out of tune and I know that. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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David Biggers
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 2:24 pm
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This is what I was talking about when I said tune my guitar with AB pedal down.
I have been doing this for about a year now.
Thanks |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 3:09 pm
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| I'm with Bo. That's the truth. |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 21 Jan 2011 7:12 pm
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Tuning a pedal steel is impossible...Adjusting would be more accurate. When you get down to the real nitty gritty, an equal temperament tuning still yields imperfect intervals. Even though they are divisible in cycles per minute, they still beat..The major 3rd interval is a prime example. The electronic revolution has provided us a means of fine tuning accuracy like never before, and we have a visual representation of exactly what the string is producing cycle wise....and this varies from when the string is first struck, whether its an overtone, open string.. and will change slightly as the energy transferred to it dissipates.
Cabinet drop has long been a heated topic here on the forum. No matter what you make a guitar out of, its body, and or bridge will bend slightly, and there will be a resultant increase or decrease in total tension when pedals and levers are activated. I recently had a long talk with Del Mullen about this...and to answer an earlier question about reinforcing the body with aluminum, composites, steel, or any other component, this has yielded no appreciable results which would justify the weight, or the cost of such a modification, or design.
As always, opinions abound here on the forum, this is only MHO...But I can tell you this...Cabinet drop is a manageable variable. Im working on a video that I think some of you might find interesting...it uses a stroboflip tuner, and deals with everything from the condition of the undercarriage/changer, to temperature variations, and instrument acclimation..until then...Just tune the thing????...
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 22 Jan 2011 6:53 am
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I think Mickey is absolutely right on here.
The invention of the programmable electronic tuner has changed many things but it doesn't change the fact that you still have to play in tune. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jan 2011 9:58 am
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| Bo Borland wrote: |
| [...] you still have to play in tune. |
+1, etc...
...it is easier to play in tune if the PSG stays in tune than if it doesn't though 
For JI based tuning we need (at least) 16 pitches/octave to make all intervals sound relative beat-free. Can be achieved with JI-compensators on today's PSGs, but only if s.c. "body-drop" is low enough not to upset and/or counteract the pitch-tuning. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 24 Jan 2011 8:26 am
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When did tuning become rocket science?
Geez. I remember the good old days when you ask someone to give you an E and you tuned by ear and the band would play a few chords or notes all together and tweak everything and the band always sounded in tune.
Now each band member has their own rocket science, robo, strobo, or snowblow tuner and nobody wants to compromise and frankly I don't hear an improvement in fact I think it has declined. |
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