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Topic: Just intonation question |
Drew Taubenfeld
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2011 11:10 pm |
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Hi folks,
I've got a question for you steel players who use just intonation. I don't want to restart the whole equal temperament vs JI debate. I just wanted to ask a few questions to the players who use their ear to "sweeten" intervals.
I'm new to pedal steel, but i'm not new to tuning instruments by ear. I've been messing around with tuning my steel and I've been experimenting with "just intonation" I'm come across some wonderful sounding stuff but I've run into a few problems, so I wanted to see if anyone is hearing he same thing and how you guys deal with it.
What I end up with is the ! !V and V chords sound wonderful to me. Like they were sent down from heaven directly to my ears! However, the minor chords (especially III and V!) don't sound very good at all. To get my A chord soundin sweet, I have to sweeten the A pedal (tuning the C# flat) That make a nice A chord with a flattened 3rd. But when try to play a C# minor chord with he A pedal down, i get a C#- with a flattened ROOT! not as appealing. Same goes for the G# minor. The C# major chord (A pedal outside left knee lever) also sounds funny because the root is flat.
Anyone else getting these kinds of issues? It is actually possible to "tune all the beats out" of a pedal steel guitar? I understand the orchestras can, but they have individuals playing single notes, so that means they can compensate for every chord. Just intonation also works well in medieval vocal music, where the tonality is mostly Droning around a stagnant key and they don't have a lot of Chord changes as we know them. But I am having trouble understanding how just intonation can really be "just" on a instrument like the pedal steel. THere gonna have to be some harmonic beats happening somewhere right?
Thanks for reading. I'll look forward to hearing back!
-Drew |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 7 Jan 2011 12:05 am Re: Just intonation question
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| Drew Taubenfeld wrote: |
| THere gonna have to be some harmonic beats happening somewhere right? |
Unless the copedant is very simple, yes there will be some beats somewhere.
Some of the beat can be tuned out by adding JI compensator rods to open strings, pulling them slightly up or down along with a pedal/lever. That's easy.
The real challenge is that some activated changes need more than one pitch to go beat-less with other changes. It can be done, but not without adding parts/solutions normally not found on PSGs, to "balance" the pitch.
You can see some the effect of the JI compensators I use on my specially tuned Dekley here. They show up as two "natural" (JI) frequencies on some strings/changes, and are marked with a $ sign in the pedal/lever table below.
The mechanically most complex JI compensation is for p1 on string 5 and 10, as the raised strings need two pitches for C#. I have extra bellcranks on the Dekley to raise the pedaled low-tuned C# to the high-tuned C# in combinations with other changes. Works well, but means I have to tune that two-pitch change under the PSG. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 7 Jan 2011 12:25 am
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When you move the bar you change your starting point for your intervals therefore playing just in any key or any sequence of chords works fine.
For the basic minor chords there shouldn't be a problem. For instance on the open strings when you play a C# minor using the A pedal the C# and G# interval should be beat free already. The problem interval to me is between the F# and C#.
Its always gonna be something because western tonality is fundamentally flawed. The trick is to practice so much that you gain a muscle memory of your instrument and then train your ear to hear inside the tonal center of whatever music you are playing.
Practice playing single note scales very very slowly on one string with no pedals. If you can do that perfectly in tune most all your issues with tuning systems and chords with dissolve. I practice that stuff every day and have a long way to go.
_________________
Bob
Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 7 Jan 2011 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2011 1:00 am
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G# would be tuned flat because it's a "3rd" of an E chord
B pedaled to C# would be tuned flat because it's a "3rd" of an A chord
So the C# can be beatless (in tune) with the G#, because they should both be equally flat.
D# (lowered E) will be flat because it's the "3rd" to the B. So in the G# minor, the G# and D# would be equally flat.
In the F chord (raise E to F and raise B to C#) F would be doubly flat, because the F needs to be flat to the already-flat C# (Db) which is now a root. So the F chord needs to be barred sharp enough to bring the C#/Db up to an in-tune root, if that's making sense.
Note that the C# minor chord, like the F chord, needs to be barred slightly higher to bring that flat C# in-tune as a root.
The F#s can be in tune with the B string, but when you pedal B up to flat C#, the C# and the F#s cannot be in tune, unless you add rods to flatten the F#s when the A pedal (C# pull) is engaged. That's called a "tuning compensator". Also barred higher. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 7 Jan 2011 5:38 am
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would tuning by harmonics help ?
Last edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 13 Jan 2011 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Drew Taubenfeld
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2011 10:09 am
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Thank you all for the comments. I've been messing with my steel a lot. Moving the bar up a hair does help a lot with minor chords.
I think my issue could simply be cabinet drop. The 8th string E and the 6th string G# sound in tune with no pedals but when I push she A pedal the go out. The G # drops a bit more than the E. Therefor its tough o get the C# minor chord to sound exactly right. But i've been messign aroudn with some compromises that are tolerable. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2011 10:28 am
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| Drew, I tune the roots and 5ths straight up and the 3rds and 6ths -15 cents. Everything else is a compromise. If there's a pedal change and there's an interval, that gets used a lot, with a lot of beating, I'll split the difference so that it has the same beat frequency pedal up as it does pedal down. Keep in mind that you're moving the bar around and unless it's really out of tune, no one will notice. |
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Andy Keen
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2011 2:06 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| The trick is to practice so much that you gain a muscle memory of your instrument and then train your ear to hear inside the tonal center of whatever music you are playing. |
I believe this is very true. But let's keep this bit on the down-low, because if you told me a year ago that on top of shelling out about $1400 to get started, I had to "hear inside the tonal center" of the music I was playing, well I'd probably have $1400 in the bank and an empty basement room.
I think we all strive to be players that make minor corrections in real-time based on our ears. I would think it'd be hard to switch between JI and ET because those micro adjustments are based on offsets on each string. I think this points out how important each players personal steel setup can be. Does anyone have anything to say about switching between them (like if you're playing on a friends' guitar)? Maybe it's easy if you're good (I wouldn't know...) |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Jan 2011 6:27 pm Dances with Wolves..... (tones..)
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Drew. I tune steadfastly to a good digital tuner. Both Doug J and Harley tune to JI Charts, they claim. They've both sat in on my rig, felt and sounded good.
Because there are famous players except Buddy Emmons, Bill Stafford and a few non vocal others that tune "JI", you tend to get nothing but grief from questioning them here. They have a lot of fans, and for good reasons. They are good players, and play in tune. Their fans and sometmes they seem to think that words that roll off their keyboards are 'gold'. I think that's where the 'bashing' starts. I've lived through a bunch of it, believe me.
I just know how I tune, and why I tune that way. Always have, and God willing, always will. I have never had any problem explaining it.
The math for playing anything but a few chord or note positions just doesn't work out for JI. No more than it would on 6 string. Not unless you are constantly adjusting. This is the beauty of the PSG. You can move your bar to match your tone center, as Mr H says, no matter what method you use. and no, it's not something that happens the first day you pick up your Sho~Bud. Or mostly the first few years for that matter, no matter how you tune.
Lloyd Green uses a very "JI" type tuning, and probably remembers where EVERY intonation glitch is. He's a MENSA member.
IMHO,establishing your tone center and playing to it TO ME has been easier over the last thirty years when I tune every string, and change to a good digital tuner. As best I can. If you have a crappy tone center, no matter how you cut it, people will tell you about it. Maybe unless you're famous.. Others mileage certainly varies.
There are other things that occurred to be along my trek. I DO prefer the 6hz beating of a major chord. Nice and BRIGHT. That's the way I learned to hear them when my father tuned pianos and I helped him when I was 4 and 5 yrs old.
Always have. A dom7th, 6th, ninth and especially a maj7th have many more beats than a major third or major 5th. Why don't people bitch about them?..
WHen you're playing single notes, or partial chords, you're playing against "notes that are no longer there" (b0b) anyhow.. 
I'll be at the Eagle Creek Inn Fri-Sat with Al R and the Ferrante Bros if anybody wants to come in, sit in, or what have you. They're a fun bunch, we play good music, and even louder than I like. Also I get 112.50 and a free hamburger. I might not even charge them the extra .50 I like playing with them so much. Nowadays I use my Sennhsr mike and a tuned up Blues Jr. instead of my Nvl400. I'm getting older I guess..
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No Tip Jar.
No Email List.
EJL |
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