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Topic: Vintage instrument rip-offs, maybe? |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 8:30 am |
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I found the list of the stolen instruments. What I'm wondering is, what were all these incredible instruments doing in one (odd) place - Verona, Italy?
FENDER
Telecaster 1952 Butterscotch 4095 exc.
Telecaster 1968 Oc.Turqoise 233427 exc.
Telecaster 1969 Sunburst 263088 Bigsby exc.
Telecaster 1969 Pink Paisley 248219 VG++
Telecaster J.Burton 1992 Bl.Paisley N2 922165 James's autograph and
dedication Exc.++
Stratocaster 1965 Torino Red L85285 exc.
Telecaster Nokie Edwards Ltd.Edition 1996 Transparent Yellow 0023 Nokie's
autograph and dedication Mint
Stratocaster 1964 Foam Green L50716 VG++
Stratocaster 1954 Ann. Custom Shop Limited Ed. 2004 Two-tone Sunburst 4017
Bill Carson's autograph on scratchplate Mint
Jaguar 1964 Sunburst L52356 exc.+
Stratocaster 1966 Sunburst 168999 Excellent
Telecaster 1968 Olympic White 234015 BigsbyExcellent
Stratocaster 1965 Fiesta Red L94250 Excellent-
Jazzmaster 1968 Olympic White157024 Golden hardware matching peghead
Excellent
Stratocaster 1994 Blue Marble N517603 Aluminum body Excellent+
Jaguar 1963 Dakota Red L01540 Matching peg-head Excellent
Jaguar 1966 Candy Apple Red 183708 Matching peg-head Excellent
Stratocaster 1965 Olympic White L67833 Excellent
Jazzmaster 1963 Sunburst L31282 excellent-
Electric-XII 1967Sunburst 136735 very good+
Stratocaster 1966 Sunburst 188197 excellent-
Stratocaster 1964 Sunburst L44016 Clay dots - transition logo excellent-
Stratocaster 1966 Candy Apple Red 166574 Excellent
Stratocaster 1973 Natural 369402 Excellent
Mustang 1968 Daphne Blue 241701 Excellent
Telecaster Thinline1968 Natural 226739 Mahogany body excellent-
Stratocaster Jimi Hendrix style! 1970 Sunburst 3030254 bolts-"with
synchronized tremolo" excellent-
Stratocaster 1987 Olympic White E768690 left handed - made in Japan
Excellent
Telecaster 1968 Sunburst 249519 Excellent
Stratocaster Jimi Hendrix style! 1969 Sunburst 2918904 bolts-"with
synchronized tremolo" excellent-
Stratocaster 1965 Sunburst L72240 a repair around the bridge pickup cavity -
everything else is O.K.Very good++
Telecaster 60's/70's Black 250423'68 neck on 70's body Very good+
StratocasterJ imi Hendrix style! 1970 Sunburst 2748744 bolts-"with
synchronized tremolo" all solder joints untouched Excellent+
Stratocaster 1971 Sunburst 322643 Four bolts - autographed by Luther Allison
Excellent
Stratocaster 1966 Sunburst 169064 Excellent
Stratocaster 1966 Sunburst 165688 Excellent
Stratocaster 1966 Sunburst 166453 Excellent
Stratocaster 1966 Sunburst 171863 Excellent-
Stratocaster 1974 Sunburst 528302 Dedicated and autographed by Stefano ("Le
Vibrazioni") Excellent
Stratocaster 1974 Black 555353 Non tremolo Excellent
Telecaster 1968 Blonde 240821 Bigsby Excellent
Mustang Competition 1971 Candy Apple Red 327292 Excellent
Jaguar 1965 Sunburst L95996 Excellent
Stratocaster Jan 1958 Two tone sunburst 023138 Bakelite parts! Excellent
Stratocaster 1990 Olympic White SE 90 1177 Autograph and "Play loud!" by
Yngwie Malmsteen and his band Near mint
Stratocaster Dodi Battaglia model prototipe1997 Sky blue A 030131
Autograph and dedication by Dodi Battaglia Excellent+
StratocasterZ.A.I. Verona model 2003 Black 02/60 Mint
Stratocaster 1971 Black 322146 Excellent+
Stratocaster 1964 Sunburst L21569 Excellent
Stratocaster Hank Marvin model 1996 Fiesta RedB002813Made in Japan Mint
Stratocaster 1982 Black E 212410 Excellent
GIBSON
GIBSON Byrdland 1965 Sunburst 346329 Very good+
GIBSON Byrdland 1963 sunburst 61657 Excellent+ Later Gibson hard case
GIBSON L5S 1980 natural 81680021 Excellent+
GIBSON Byrdland 1963 sunburst 61657 Excellent ex Roy Clark
GIBSON ES 350 T 1957 natural A25469 Excellent P.A.F. p.u.'s
GIBSON ES 320TD 1972 natural 970372 Excellent non orig. Kluson tuners
GIBSON Les Paul De Luxe1975cherry sunburst99-123383Excellent+
GIBSON L.P.Custom 1978 Black 73548604 Excellent ex Pino Daniele
GIBSON Melody Maker1960 sunburst 0-2018 Excellent replacement tuners
GIBSON L.P.Special 1960 cherry red0-5868 very good Ex Dodi Battaglia (POOH)
GIBSON Les Paul De Luxe1971 cherry sunburst 120111 Near mint
GIBSON Firebird III riverse1964 sunburst 228870 Excellent
GIBSON Firebird III non riverse1968 sunburst 887900 Excellent-
GIBSON L.P.Custom1972 cherry s/b 770430 Excellent Grover tuners
GIBSON L.P.Custom 1971 Black 957126 Excellent
GIBSON L.C. Custom 1971 Black 922853 Excellent-Grover tuners
GIBSON L.P. Custom 1976 tobacco s/b00-115756 Excellent
GIBSON L.P.Standard 1978 Wine red 70458505 Excellent
GIBSON L.P.Standard 1980 Natural 80030612 Excellent
GIBSON L.P. 25/50 1979 Black 70829035 - 3000 Excellent Very rare finish
GIBSON L.P.Standard 1976 wine red 00-236139 Excellent
GIBSON SG Melody Maker1967 black ref.003481 Excellent
GIBSON B.B.KING Lucille 2000 Black 02580531 Excellent+Ex Francesco Sarcina
("Le Vibrazioni")
GIBSONSG Special 1971 Cherry red 957789 Very good+ Ex Pino Daniele
GIBSON L.P.Standard 1979 Tabacco sunburst 80280556 Very good+ Ex Maurizio
Solieri
GIBSON L.P.Standard 1989 Cherry sunburst 81729567 Excellent Autographed by
Jimmy Page (Name and Zoso)
GIBSON L.P.Custom1971 Cherry sunburst 728650 Excellent
GIBSON L.P. De Luxe1979 Gold top 72899605 Excellent-
GIBSON L.P.Custom 1971 Black 126365 Excellent
GIBSON Firebird III Riverse1964 Sunburst 212542 Excellent+
GIBSON L.P. De Luxe1979 Wine Red 72976585 Excellent+
OTHER SOLIDBODIES
RICKENBACKER 355JL 1991 black G4-6949 Excellent ex Ron
RICKENBACKER 330 1980 black A1-9867 Excellent ex Omar Pedrini (Timoria)
SILVERTONE 1448 early 60'sblack// Very good Ex "Capitan Fede" Poggipollini
GRETSCH 6120 C.Atkins 1956 western orange 20832 Excellent ex Bryan Adams
ACOUSTIC
NATIONALStyle OEarly 30'sNickelplateS5143Very good+
BASSES
FENDER P.bass 1966 sunburst 190906 Excellent+
GIBSONEB 2D 1968 cherry 309325 Excellent-
FENDER Jazzbass Early '68 sunburst 215288 excellent
GIBSON EB 219 69 sunburst 904805 Excellent++
FENDER P.bass 1968 sunburst 274264 Excellent
FENDER P.bass 1965 sunburst L99286 excellent
FENDER Jazzbass 1974 black 548892 excellent
FENDER P.bass1966 sunburst 147495 excellent
EKO Violin bass (995) mid sixtieslight brown 349275 Excellent+
GIBSON EB01968 cherry red 904805 Excellent+
FENDER Jazz bass1978 sunburst S8847816 excellent
FENDER Jazz bass1973 sunburst 361406 excellent
FENDER P.bass1978 natural S861969 excellent
FENDER Jazz bass1978 Olympic White S843185 excellent
FENDER P.bass 1969 Sunburst 292329 excellent
FENDER Jazzbass 1964 Olympic White L57191 Excellent
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 8:35 am
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The most insidious part to me was the fact that they'd been fabricating 'old' Marshall amps! Now I don't think that Marshall amps are worth going nuts over - it's mostly just a nostalgia for a certain period in time - but it's disturbing, nonetheless, that it's been happening.
I'm very relieved that my collecting is limited to the very occasional old Martin - Fenders almost cry out to be faked, and I've often wondered how many so-called prime pieces are actually forgeries.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 4:32 pm
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Well, anyone who's been around long enough can remember that the 70's mantra was that a very few of the old guitars were really special, but you had to launch an odyssey to find the "one." And throughout the early to mid 1970's, there were a number of companies like Tokai and Ibanez who were putting out copies with just a name change that were often better than the newest Fenders and Gibsons. There were only a few dealers like Gruhn who could carry a small inventory of old guitars.
Then, the lawyers for Gibson and Fender rightfully put a stop to the most direct identity ripoffs, though I distinctly remember a bandmate who had a great new Tokai Strat in 1983, purchased in Austin no less. And of course the obedient Japanese destroyed all the jigs and patterns they were using to make such close copies... which is why, by the late 80's guitar shows, there were close to a dozen dealers who had ALL discovered the proverbial grandma widows who looked under the bed and they could each mount a whole wallfull of minty, yet vintage, guitars.
It's now just another branch of the antiques trade - all the "reputable" dealers will agree that 90% of the antiques that all the other guys are selling are really fake, but individually they each have plenty of inventory, all the time. A few years back somebody took the time to check the inventory of "The Burst Brothers" and all the other "vintage specialists", especially the Japanese trading market; and they added up ALL the advertisements in Vintage Guitar & the subscription sites. There were just under TEN TIMES as many 1958 and 1959 Les Paul Standards for sale as were ever even manufactured...
I noticed it acutely back then in the bass market. Phil Kubicki and Spector and Wahl and Music Man all made their bones because old Fender basses were simply unplayable. That vintage single trussrod (which now seems so toneful)was totally inadequate to keep a neck alive for 15 years, and every old Jazz bass and most of the Precisions had a great big S-shape where the neck used to go. People didn't even want old Fenders cause the pickups blew too; bass players had always been ahead of the guitarists on new construction - they had to be, in order to have anything to play.
But obviously the "vintage" delirium metastasized, because now every dealer in every town has a whole rack of '63 Jazzes and '58 Precisions, and you should just SEE what interesting custom colors they are, that make them worth even more.... The magazines and supposedly reputable dealers are all complicit in this because it'd be quite a sacrifice to look at your wall full of hidden gems and declare them for what they are.
And every guitar book ever written with the goal of telling you just exactly what to look for to authenticate your great "find" is just a cookbook to the next guy. Every once in a while some end user tries to start up an actual serial number registry to identify where stuff came from, but the dealers won't touch it with a ten-foot pole.
Last edited by David Mason on 10 Jan 2011 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 10 Jan 2011 6:40 am
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Thanks, David, for your interesting and well-written post. I didn't know about the bass-guitar side of things, and that was particularly interesting reading!
'Vintage' electric guitars - solid-body ones in particular - seems to be an area akin to shark-infested waters! I'm just a pro player who can't even consider paying the prices being asked for old Teles and Strats, so I'm more than happy that the big manufacturers woke up to things and that we know have Custom Shop output that will satisfy anyone who wants a guitar just for the way it plays and sounds. My Thin-Skin Telecaster ('62 LPB with Glaser B-Bender) is all the electric guitar I'll ever need and I can relax as a mere spectator to all the ups-and-downs of the 'vintage' market.
I'm thumbing through the current 'Vintage Guitar' issue, and it occurs to me that there seems to be one-of-every possible computation of Fender guitar available somewhere; Fiesta Red Precision? Olympic White Jazzmaster? No problem, sir.....
I love the 'cook-book' analogy, by the way!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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nick allen
From:
France
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Posted 10 Jan 2011 7:34 am
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I don't know the details, so I'll be careful here, but there is a forum called the "BeatGear Cavern" which as you may guess centres around (but is not exclusive to) Beatle era music and instruments. And a search on "Music Ground" in their "Fab Forum" section will bring up many threads, going back a long way, implying dubious activities involving Hofner basses...
On a related subject, two trends I find very sad are 1) the ridiculous prices paid for an "original" guitar, to the point that replacing tuners, even with better ones, will take hundreds if not thousands of dollars off the price of an instrument; and 2) the production by major companies of "reliced" or "distressed" new instruments, made to look as if they've been used hard for 20 years. I'm sorry if I'm insulting anyone reading this, but to me that's just plain stupid. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 10 Jan 2011 7:41 am
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Nick
I couldn't agree more about 'relic'ing' (sic!) - one of the attractions of my 2008-built Lake Placid Blue Teles from the Custom Shop was the fact that they were - and looked - brand spanking new! It was just like wandering into a shop in 1962 and getting the Fender of your dreams. My Thin-Skin Teles, by the way, only cost me $1500 apiece - if they'd have been 'real' they'd have been at least ten times that!
Having said that, my favourite of the two (the one with the bender) has a few genuine battle-scars now - that 'thin skin' finish (a single coat of nitro-cellulose) is extremely fragile, so I can claim to have 'relic'ed' my own guitar! 
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2011 2:22 pm
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There's a detail that I find rather telling about what people are buying, when they score an old guitar.
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| ...to the point that replacing tuners, even with better ones, will take hundreds if not thousands of dollars off the price of an instrument; |
The newest corollary to the tuner thing is "original solder joints", regardless of what they're soldered TO. If you strum an old, "rare" guitar and no noise comes out, you take a multimeter to it and discover that the pickup has failed, the pot's dead, the capacitor headed home to the happy hunting grounds - DON'T YOU DARE FIX IT! Guitars with "original solder joints" are worth far more than ones that actually work - though, if the repair "looks" like it was done a long time ago by the factory (oh, sure...) the value will coming creeping back up. And of course, there's plenty of info on what original solder looks like, as it's (ahem) aged....
Happy Cooking!: http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html
(BTW, you can now buy bushings to re-fit Kluson sheet -metal repro tuners, just in case somebody had ruined a guitar by putting better Schallers or Grovers on it.)  |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 11 Jan 2011 10:35 am
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I played for years with a wonderful Telly player, he knew Les Paul, Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton..he knew all the top players and all their tricks.. played a Telly he said was a mid 50's and his gear included a cable and a black faced Deluxe reverb ..his tone was unreal
I had seen it apart many times for repairs , it had the best neck I ever held.. and a penciled in date..
He was the best Telly forger I ever saw.. he knew all there was to know about the early ones. and could replicate them , but never did .. only his own..
There is an outfit in town this week buying vintage gear.. I'm taking a 72 Tele Thinline and a 79 Strat for their consideration. |
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