Cables Really Do Make A Difference

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Not too long ago a cable company asked if they could come by and demonstrate their new cables to me. Always interested in this kind of thing I told them sure. Long story short, I used a 5' length of Geo L's .155" as the standard for comparison- direct from the guitar to the amp with no effects. They had a number of different cables- the first of which sounded too dark(lack of highs) to me to which they commented that actually I was hearing more frequencies than the Geo L. No matter- I didn't like it and we moved on. Tried another- better but still a bit too dark. Then another- that seemed to have the highs that I enjoyed hearing but also the notes seemed a bit broader at the "waist"- kinda like I'm getting. After looking into the basics of cables a titch, it is apparent that a cable can be designed to pretty suit whatever the listener wants to hear- not necessarily an Emmons instead of a ShoBud but the basic tonal characteristics being emanated from the instrument. The cable is actually a filter as well as an agent to transmit the sound. A more detailed explanation of cable characteristics can be found here under the paragraph "Cable Electrical Characteristics". While properly submitted this subject should be in the Electronics section I felt that more folks would read it here as it really is an important feature of ones sound chain..

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jim
Did your experiment use a volume pedal, a buffer amp, etc? In other words was there more than one cable?
In my experience the only cable that matters is the first one, the one that is connected directly to the pickup. You can draw a simple circuit diagram with R,L,C in series and calculate how it responds to different frequencies. Sometimes there is a resonant peak (too much of a certain frequency getting thru) and a drop off above there so you don't hear the highs.
Even with a low capacitance cable such as George L, I was surprised to learn that I could hear the difference between a 36" cable and a 6" cable (from pickup to pedal, or pickup to buffer amp mounted on the guitar).

Mark MacKenzie · From: Franklin, Tennessee, USA

Very interesting. It would be good to quantify it somewhat. I mean like, 30db drop at 1k or what? Lots of variables though...

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I did not do that Earnest but have heard that. In general, if there is an active pedal such as a Telonics/Hilton/Goodrich LDR, the wiring from the pickup to the pedal would be all that makes a real difference. The wiring includes everything from the pickup- including the pots and switches if any exist, the output jack and the cable itself. When using a pedal with a potentiometer it all matters until you hit an active device such as the preamp/stomp box, etc. that boosts the signal. Greg Leisz had me rewire his pedal board as well as replacing all of his cables and was happy with the result however it could have been just the one cable making the difference. Smile

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

Hi Jim, so did you come to a conclusion as to what brand of cable is the best? Did you find one brand to be "better" than the George L's? Happy Holidays!
Dana
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

Mike Kowalik · From: San Antonio,Texas

Sometime back I switched from George L cable to Canare cables and I sense a noticeable improvement in tone with the same guitar and amp.
_________________
Cremation is my last shot at having a hot body......

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I don't believe that there is a "best"- being political. It's like best color or best tone- one of those "to each his(or her) own". I like the Geo L's cables for a number of reasons- you can remake them at any time if a problem develops (occasionally seen in the right angle connections) and they are low capacitance cables that provide the highs that I look for in the steel guitar world. The cable that I was referring to in my post is manufactured by "Bullet Cable" and this cable, to my ears, gives the note a bit more mids w/o losing the highs but I am splitting hairs a little here. This cable still offers modularity like Geo L's and is a titch more expensive (about 15% more) and is quite a bit thicker. It has been classified by a technical friend of mine as more of an RF cable.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

FWIW: I use the best, and thickest, RF cable I could get hold of between PSG and matchbox - about 3 feet. Easy to hear the difference between the RF cable and regular George L cables of same length.
After the matchbox it doesn't matter, but I use lower-class RF cables there anyway since they're pretty cheap.

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

Thanks, There's a lot of different brands to choose from nowdays and price is important to me.
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

I agree Jim, cables do alter your sound.

Susan Alcorn · From: Baltimore, MD, USA

Interesting. I have found the same thing for certain power strips.

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Jim -

I don't mean to split hairs, stomp on your thread or otherwise be a smartbutt but it might be well to summarize the generalities by referencing them to the impedances to be found in the typical signal chain.

In some cases, cable capacitance has little effect - in others, it's death itself to tone.

Respectfully,

Richard

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

"The best".... always seems ridiculous, in an interactive system like electric instruments. If someone has established a way to get a certain balance of highs, mids and lows that pleased their ear using Belden or Canares cable and you went through the system replacing all cables with low-capacitance ones like George L, the system would become really, really shrill. So the George L's can't be "best", right?

I use Bill Lawrence L500 pickups in a number of instruments, and when I plug straight into another person's amp who's set it for regular old Fralin or Lollar or Duncan pickups, my guitar sounds "trebly." It's not that the Lawrence isn't putting out plenty of bass and mids, but the proportions changed - I just tell my friends that they have their amps set to overcompensate for their mushtone "all-mids" humbuckers.

Jimi Hendrix specifically used coily cords live to drop the resonant peak of his Strats from up around 4K to 2K before they hit the pedals, because they were "better" in that rig, and he knew exactrly what he was doing. He recorded with straight Belden cable. Serious Strat-slingers like Eric Johnson and Julien Kasper specifically keep a cheap, high-capacitance, "bad" cable around to do the exact same thing - though you can also drop the peak a half-dozen different other ways.

The greatest underestimated "tone control" in most people's rigs is speaker choice - if you look at the frequency curve of speakers, you'll see there a huge dropoff around 2K to 2.5K. There's a very, very good reason you don't have high frequency horns or tweeters amplifying your steels and guitars - plug into a PA speaker column sometime to find out why. Mad

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Alright, Susan. Let's hear the details.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Richard- you can split and stomp all you want to- it doesn't bother me in the least. The basics of my point was that, in many cases, what one hears can be affected by the cables used. I am not really much of a tech-oriented kinda guy and am always happy to hear what anyone else has to say.

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Jim -

You asked for it so I'll make an attempt to make a cloudy day somewhat sunshiney.

Let's first dispense with a misconception found often on the Forum. "Resistance" and "Impedance" are not the same thing. Resistance is simply the opposition to current flow in both AC (Alternating Current) and DC (Direct Current) circuits. You can measure a pure resistance with your garden-variety Volt-Ohm-Meter. You CANNOT measure impedance with anything but sophisticated equipment. The reason? Impedance is the vector combination of things called Capacitive Reactance, Inductive Reactance and Resistance. Those "reactances" are the opposition to current flow in an AC circuit. The "circuits" found in the connection of the PSG to ancillary equipment are virtually all "impedances".

The most common type of "impedances" are the "source" and the "input". Source impedances are the output impedances of "driving" members, e.g., pickups, preamplifiers and the such. The input impedances are those being DRIVEN by the source impedances. "Source" impedances do not like to be "loaded" down, i.e., having to drive another impedance of such low value that the source fails to produce its' maximum output voltage/current. It becomes obvious that a very low "source" impedance is desirable. A general rule of thumb in analog circuits is to provide a "load impedance" which is, typically, 10X the source impedance.

Now, where does all of that crap fit into this discussion of cables? Let's start with the first component in the overall chain - the pickup. The pickup is, generally, considered to be a high impedance device. In order to not load the pickup, the potentiometer in the foot pedal is usually about 500Kohms (thousand ohms)- much greater than the impedance of the pickup. A 1Megohm pot will load the pickup even less. Now, let's connect a garden-variety cable between the two. Remember that quantity called "capacitive reactance"? Every cable has an intrinsic capacitance between the center conductor and the shield. This value is usually specified as capacitance/foot. As frequency increases, the value of the "reactance" is inversely proportional to that frequency thus it decreases. For large values of capacitance/foot you can kiss your high frequencies goodbye! Why? That capacitive reactance is in the circuit right across the pickup. As frequency increases, that "load" decreases. This is the simplified explanation. This leads us to an irrefutable, albeit general, statement: To minimize the signal loss due to cable capacitance, use a cable with low intrinsic capacitance/foot and keep it short! Remember, it's capacitance/foot and those feet add up!

Passive foot pedals - those with a potentiometer - present a varying impedance to the source - the pickup - when connected to the amplifier. In turn, the output of the pedal would preferably be connected to a high input impedance of the amplifier. This latter concern is not a concern at all since virtually all amplifiers and effects units have that desirable high input impedance.

"Active" foot pedals, e.g., the Hilton and its' cousins, have a very high input impedance. Further, they have low output impedances afforded by the electronics therein.

Can all of this be summarized in a general, but all-inclusive statement? Yes, but not without one final word regarding cable construction. We all know that cable is constructed with a center conductor, dielectric insulator, and "shield". That "shield" can take one of several forms and is instrumental in how much extraneous noise is allowed into the circuits - particularly high impedance - in which it is connected. That noise can come from the AC mains (AC hum), flourescent lights and a dozen other sources. If the shielding is insufficient in preventing the intrusion of these outside sources of electromagnetic radiation, then the pristine condition which you hope for is shot to hell.

I use ONLY double-shielded, low-capacitance cable and make them up myself. Further, I use ONLY the length necessary to connect the electronic pieces together. Got that? Does it all tie in with the information given above? Sure it does.

The last question to be answered - or, at least, attempted to be answered - is that of the quality of available cables on the market. Some, like Monster cable may use OFC (oxygen free) copper for the center conductor. Necessary? I don't think so. If your hearing is such that you can hear the difference between Monster cable and something else, then go ahead and blow $90 and be sonically happy for the rest of your life. On the other hand, if that $3.98 "guitar" cable from WalMart suits your fancy then have at it. There are many good quality cables available for sale. It doesn't take that much effort to find one within the limits of your pocketbook and which will serve you well for as long as you play the PSG.

All ya have to remember is to search out a cable with low capacitance/foot and excellent shielding. It should be worth at least a little bit of your time such that you never worry about it again.

It has been pointed out - in a post above - that some performers have purposely chosen cables which will alter the overall sound of their chosen setup. I cannot say that such a practice is "wrong" since it achieves a desired end result. If it "works" for you, then by all means use it. For myself, and only for myself, I prefer to assemble something which is pristine with regards to accepted practice and trust the plethora of electronic gadgetry to tailor the sound to my liking.

I'm fond of saying "Do your homework". I've done mine - now it's your turn.

Respectfully,

Richard

Susan Alcorn · From: Baltimore, MD, USA

Lee, I realize it may look like I was saying that black power strips are different. However, for power strips and tone . . . I did a show a couple of years ago on the same bill as some German progressive rock band, and they insisted that the venue have these certain expensive power strips because of their computers or something, and I remember that when I plugged into those power strips, my sound was kind of . . . thin. Then when I replaced it with my (el cheapo) power strip, it sounded great. Or maybe that was when the earplugs fell off.

Jay Fagerlie · From: Lotus, California, USA

Susan,
It could have been because of the voltage drop caused by the MOV's in the protection circuit of the power strip.
I've seen it happen.
Jay

John Castelletti · Posted 6 Feb 2011 8:48 am

Does anyone have any experience with Bill lawrence cables? Many tele players swear by them and compare the favorably to the George L's.

Bo Legg · Posted 6 Feb 2011 10:38 am

Cheap cables are the only way I can get that chicken pickin twang.
Ever notice how a cheap cable will pick up the Juke box without a mic.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

What does "high impedance" mean?

A high impedance output device (like a piezoelectric sensor device or a magnetic microphone pickup) is characterized by a voltage source that can't make much current.

When you squeeze a properly prepared quartz crystal (one that's had opposing sides silvered, and output wires attached to the silver coatings, for example) you will drive electronz to one of the coatings, thereby creating a voltage across the device.

The high impedance output of this device basically means that you cannot put much of load on the device to measure that voltage, else you use up all of the electrons and drain the source. Similar situation for a magnetic pickup.

That's why they invented electrometers and the old style "potentiometers" (not to be confused with the pots found in a volume pedal) that were actually very high input impedance voltmeters accomplished by nulling a bridge circuit to obtain the high impedance input.
These potentiometers were elaborate electronic instruments in nice oak boxes. Typically used in science labs and by corrosion engineers.

Anything you can do between the sensor (the pickup) and the first gain block (preamp, effects box, active pedal, etc.) to help these few electrons get to their destination is a good thing.

Now if somebody wants to build a system with an instrumentation amplifier as the first gain block (maybe even in the pickup), then run balanced cables, that would be interesting.
_________________
Lawyers are done: Emmons SD-10, 3 Dekleys including a D10, NV400, and lots of effects units to cover my clams...

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

I had an interesting experience recently regarding my input sound chain. This is a little bit off your OP Jim but I hope you don't mind.

A couple years back I started using a Goodrich VP 10K model which has a battery operated buffer amp in it. This helped to bring my Wallace TTs to life. I was using basic off the shelf music store cables then and now and always use lengths only long enough to reach from guitar>VP>RV3>amp.

I went back to a BL710 that I'd previously used and liked because of tiring of single coil hum. The ice pick highs through my twin/JBL made it tough to get a good tone with the 710. Brad Sarno pointed out that the 710 was meant to be used with a pot pedal, it was meant to be loaded up a bit to tame or lower the range of the resonant peak.

I put my good ol' pot pedal back in the chain and ice pick highs were gone with 710. In this case a slight "kink in the hose" was a good thing.

John Castelletti · Posted 9 Feb 2011 7:45 pm

For anyone who is interested, I just bought some of the Bill Lawrence Cable and it's very very good. While I don't have any George L's to compare it to, I A/B'd it with the various cables I have; Monster, Planet Waves, Livewires, and the el cheapo Musicians Friend cable.

I play through a 45 watt 1x15 amp I made and the cables made a very noticeable difference. The BL cables really opened up the top end in nice way... sounds kinda corny but it was like molten glass, not at all harsh or overly bright and the frequency balance is great all the way through.

I like it so much I think I'm going to rewire my home studio with it.

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Thanks Jim, very interesting.
Hook
_________________
http://twitter.com/hook_moore
www.facebook.com/hook.moore
Blaine Moore

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

"I use ONLY double-shielded, low-capacitance cable and I make them up myself"

For those of us without the resources to make a double shielded low capacitance cable, which of the available cables that we can buy fit this description? How can we know the capacitance of commercially available cables we see at the store? I get the part about length, that I can understand.
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic