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Topic: Right hand position |
John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2010 2:30 pm |
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I've been playing pedal steel (self-taught from books, videos, and forum help) for about 18 months, and I feel like I'm progressing at a reasonable pace. Palm blocking isn't much of a problem for me any more, and I can play along with just about any country or folk song without sounding too bad. (My playing often gets boring and repetitious, but it at least fits the music.) A few months ago I worked through Jeff Newman's Right Hand Alpha course, and I was relieved to find out that I hadn't been doing anything too egregiously wrong up to that point.
There's one thing that concerns me, though. Newman says the edge of the right hand should be parallel to the pickup. Mine is definitely not, as you can see in these pictures of my usual position:
When I really try hard to get parallel to the pickup, this is about as close as I can come, and my blocking gets a lot less reliable:
As far as I can tell, the main downside of my hand position is that I can't strum harmonics very well -- which is not really a part of my repertoire, anyway. Aside from that, it doesn't seem to hinder my playing.
My question is: should I work hard to fix this, or just stop worrying about it? And if you think it's a problem, do you have any ideas or exercises that might help?
Thanks,
John |
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Robert Murphy
From:
West Virginia
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Posted 12 Dec 2010 2:40 pm
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| I am a newbie but I can tell you that's what my hand looks like when I play Dobro. Billy Cooper said "stick your thumb way out there". Like at right angles to your picking fingers. That will put your hand more parellel to the pickup. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 12 Dec 2010 3:02 pm
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| I think your hand position is excellent. I've never seen or heard the Alpha Right Hand video, and so can't comment on why Jeff Newman would have said to keep it parallel. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 12 Dec 2010 4:11 pm
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| If you are able to consistently pick the strings you intend to pick with the tone you intend to produce, while blocking the strings that you do not want to be ringing then whatever you are doing is just fine. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 12 Dec 2010 5:39 pm
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John, it looks like your wrist is bent quite a bit, kind of a cramped position. If you will pull your elbow closer to your body, the hand will rotate to the right. Then you can relax your wrist, and your hand will be in position, parallel to the pickup. If the wrist is relaxed, I think everything will seem easier for you. Jeff mentions this in the video, observe carefully how he is holding his hand and the position of his elbow. For what it's worth, here is a picture of my hand.
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 12 Dec 2010 8:43 pm
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It just dawned on me: If you look at your right hand from above, it looks like you are far from being parallel to the pick-up. But if you lean to the left and look into the palm of your hand (where the imaginary ball is that gives you the rounded shape), you will see that the heel of the hand (the part that does the actually work in blocking) is in fact parallel, or at least very close to parallel, to the pick-up. Maybe that's what Jeff was talking about.
Certainly the right elbow should be close to, if not touching, the body. In John's photos I think his elbow is reasonably close to his body, and very acceptable. |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 12 Dec 2010 9:33 pm
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Doug Jernigan said in one of his videos that if you keep your right hand down on the steel, it would help you with your blocking technique. He also said blocking is a good way to avoid unwanted rings on the steel and he said, it's a good idea to keep your right hand away from the pickup and he said one good technique is to keep your elbow down so you can learn blocking and other techniques.
Brett |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2010 9:30 am
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Thanks a million, guys. This is very helpful. It sounds like there isn't a big problem with the way I'm doing it, but I could benefit from continuing to work on the subtleties.
I went back and watched the beginning of Right Hand Alpha again, and saw that Jeff Newman's hand isn't really quite parallel to the pickup, either:
Bill Moore, I agree that in the photos my hand looks cramped, but in fact it's a comfortable and relaxed position for me. I do tend to let my elbow go out to the side (not so much in these particular photos), so I'll keep working on that. Keeping my thumb "way out there" doesn't come naturally to me but does seem to help, so I'll keep working on making that second nature.
Again, thanks to all of you who replied!
John |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 13 Dec 2010 9:41 am
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John, if it works for you, there is no reason to change anything. keep it mind, the entire right Hand Alpha video, like all of Jeff's material, was designed to show the fastest, easiest to understand method, that will result in good tone, and proper blocking. I think it works for most people. But there are a lot of pros that do great, using slightly different methods. And there are a whole bunch that play a style very similar to Jeff's.
_________________
Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Clark Doughty
From:
KANSAS
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Posted 13 Dec 2010 3:07 pm Right hand position
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| Just for what it's worth. I'm a newbee, about 4 months and was having trouble keeping my right elbow in to my side, as someone has mentioned, and Mike Sweeney told me a good way to practice keeping your elbow in is to hold a tennis ball under your arm pit and keeping it there while you play. Sounds very uncomfortable but it really works. I didn't have any tennis balls but am using a racket ball instead and I hardly notice it being there. As long as you keep your elbow the ball stays in place. I rarely drop it anymore. This might help you keep your elbow in where it is supposed to be........cd |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 16 Dec 2010 3:33 am
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Thanx for posting those links Dave, Those are MY heros, too, and checking out their fine form will help many newbies, and we could fill up volumes with just links to other great players, but that's not what this thread is about, is it.
Notice all these fine players Dave listed have fine form--elbos in, nice angle to their right hands. J.D's style is a little more flat than most players, like Doug Jernigans, but they make it work for them well. Joe Wright is another player who can play with more of a flat posture OR more of an angled form equally as well. They seem to be the exception, not the rule. Is that what you mean by different way to skin a cat, Dave?
By the way, your Hal Rugg link was dead, so try this one, I think it will work. Notice that fine Shobud Fingertip Hal is playing. Also Check out Tom Brumley in the Buck vid. Tom started Ricky out on steel. You can sure see where Ricky's text-book form came from. By the way Dave, you seem to be pretty passionate about this, so what do YOU teach your students? Thanx for re-inforcing my point, Your a pal, Dave. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2LS3oFOuNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2LS3oFOuNw
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net
Last edited by James Morehead on 16 Dec 2010 4:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Franklin
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Posted 16 Dec 2010 4:01 am
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John,
.....Jeff taught you and thousands of others the starting point to good technique and tone. IMO he was the best at getting players on their way.
The position next to or slightly on the pickup is generally where the sweetest tone of the instrument is found.....He pointed you towards a position for beautiful tone.....now that you have it down try moving the picking hand right and left to listen to the instruments tonal qualities....Closer to the pickup gives a higher pitch while farther away darkens some of the cutting edge......
Paul |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2010 1:48 pm
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As usual, you folks are incredibly helpful. Thanks for the video links. There's always something to learn from watching an experienced player in action. It's not easy to find videos that provide a clear view of the steel player.
Clark, I'm going to start using that tennis-ball-in-the-armpit trick as soon as I can get an old tennis ball from somebody around here. Hopefully it'll work better than the basketball I tried this morning . . . (Just kidding.)
Paul, thanks for the tip. I have just in the past few months become accurate enough and confident enough of my picking to start gaining more control over my tone by changing the distance between my right hand and the pickup when I play. It is definitely helping me play more expressively.
Say, while you're here, I'll hijack my own thread to thank you for the bar hand exercise that you posted about a year ago (LINK). I discovered it a month ago and have been drilling with it religiously every day since then. I cannot believe how much my bar hand has improved from daily repetition of that simple exercise.
John |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2010 8:13 pm
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Hi James,
I’m not sure that I’d say I’m “passionate” about hand-shapes, but I do believe that it is helpful that new players be aware that there several options available, and that some work better for some people than others.
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If there was a textbook about it, I’d suggest that there are three distinctive approaches to blocking, with several variations:
1. Palm-blocking
a. With little finger completely extended. (Examples: Lloyd Green, Tom Brumley)
b. With little finger partially extended, usually to contact first string (Examples: Bobby Black, Buddy Emmons, Jeff Newman, Curly Chalker)
c. With little finger curled under the palm, presumably to help with blocking (Examples: Bobby Black, Hal Rugg, JD Maness, Joaquin Murphy)
2. “Pick-blocking”- which actually uses lots more than just the picks to block notes. (Examples: Paul Franklin, Joe Wright, JD Maness)
3. Buddy Emmons’ approach to single-string playing- in which he blocks his thumb notes with the ball of his thumb, and middle-finger notes with his right-hand ring-finger. (Examples: Buddy Emmons, Buddy Charleton, Tommy White)
Notice that I’ve listed some players more than once—because they sometimes shift from one approach to another—even during one song.
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The type of blocking one chooses has a great deal to do with the hand-shape that is used to accomplish it.
It also matters which finger one primarily uses to pick with in conjunction with the thumb—some use their index finger, some use their middle finger.
So rather than say, “Here is the perfect textbook way to shape your hand”, one needs to decide first which blocking approach works best for you, since that will be a large part of determining how to shape your hand—and then try different hand-shapes to get the auditory results that you want to achieve.
In answer to your question about teaching, I’ve helped a few people get started on pedal steel over the years.
When teaching blocking, I’d usually show the student the basics of blocking, make sure their ergonomics were correct, demonstrate several of the approaches listed above, and allow them to choose the blocking approach that was most comfortable for them.
Your pal, Dave |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 16 Dec 2010 9:02 pm
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I agree Dave, except new people have no clue about which form of blocking works for them, since they've never done it before. So, in your comment, the cart is really infront of the horse, to me, in that respect. It is a study and challenge in itself to actually get started correctly, then explore the possibilities. That's what John, is interested in in this thread, I believe.
There is a "#4" you didn't mention---combining pick blocking as well as palm blocking--together. It is well to know both and use both. Lack of decent posture, among other things will put a low ceiling on ones ability. You can't know to much. The music will draw from you what is needed then. It can't draw, though if you have not learned-------
The linked examples sited are of ones who are in the realm of proper posture, and are very successful. They gave great attention to posture. And can play, really play. There's your "textbook", those before us who mentor us. Nuff said.
You are welcome to email me privately, if you wish go take this discussion further, but it's really getting off topic a little, and it's not fair to the author to continue on his thread. There's nothing to win--just opinions that differ, and we are really saying about the same thing, just a little different manner of speaking.
John, you are well on your way to a great right hand--keep up the good work.
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Franklin
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Posted 17 Dec 2010 4:00 am
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I have to stand by Jeff, he was correct to teach using absolute statements.....His mission was to guide students along in the shortest amount of time......His teaching accomplishments proves he did just that....It is being suggested that teachers explain the multiple ways to pick the strings to those who are beginning to play.....I totally disagree for the beginner........Confidence is gained when the student knows he is doing anything the "right" way.........Jeff provided confidence to all of his students...Confidence stokes the fire of determination....Confusion leads to frustration, not confidence.........Determination eventually burns out without the confidence of knowing you are on the right path.........Jeff was truly a great teacher.
The English language has more pronunciation variations than our right hand techniques....Yet....We were taught in absolute terms the hard and soft pronunciation of each letter according to our teachers regional accent.......Why were we not taught each regional pronunciation, let alone each countries accentuations of each hard and soft letter? its easy to see how confusing that would be to someone just starting to read..........Jeff taught the most accurate and common methods to his students with the confidence of knowing his information works for most players...............Paul |
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Alan Harrison
From:
Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2010 5:24 am Mr. P.F.
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I think Paul said it all......
_________________
Mullen (Black) Pre G-2 9x7, B.L. 705 PUP's, Evans SE 200 Telonics NEO 15-4, BJS Bar, Peterson Strobo Flip, Steelers Choice Seat, Folgers Coffee and Hilton Pedals.
"I Steel Without Remorse" |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 17 Dec 2010 7:39 am
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I know I've posted this before, but I had a couple of lessons with Ricky Davis when he was still living in Austin quite a few years ago. I went over to learn 'hot licks' but the first thing he did was correct some posture and right hand issues. If you've seen Ricky play, you'll notice his right hand is 'textbook' as James or somebody noted above, and that's the position he was showing me.
I won't say Ricky's hand position is the only good position, but it's certainly a good hand position and I think that's the point. I was very flat handed, fairly good pick blocker, but a lousy palm blocker. It literally took years to unlearn the old hand position, but I believe it's really paid off. If you start with a good hand position early on, i.e. with Jeff Newman's instruction or any good teacher, you'll be miles ahead.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2024 9:25 am
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I’m reviving this post because I’m reviewing my right hand technique. There are some important distinctions in this thread, but one that hasn’t been mentioned is in regard to a player’s thumb anatomy.
The way you position the picking hand has to do with whether you have a straight thumb or your thumb has an “outy” interphalangeal joint (the joint closest to the tip).
The thumb pick needs to strike the string as squarely as possible to produce the best tone. If you have a straight thumb, like mine and a couple others who have posted in this discussion, then the entire length of the thumb needs to extend out away from the other fingers in order to accomplish a square thumb pick strike. If you have an “outy”, you can simply extend the joint out.
The advantage of the outy is that it allows the hand to remain relatively perpendicular to the strings, straight out from the forearm, leaving the entire arm all the way to the shoulder in a fairly relaxed condition. This also would seem to facilitate both pick blocking and palm blocking.
I see no advantages in the straight thumb, only obstacles to be overcome.
Paul Franklin, Joe Wright, and Jeff Newman (rip) all appear to have outy thumbs. I don’t know of any biggies who definitely had straight thumbs, but Buddy Emmons’ kinda looks like it.
I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts on this, particularly psg teachers. |
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John Hyland
From:
South Australia
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Posted 9 Jun 2024 1:53 pm
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| Don’t forget the closer you sit to the pickup the harder it will be get the hand squarish to the strings. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2024 9:21 pm
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Fred, And then there is Sarha Jory, She plays with her thumb pick slid up to the first joint on her thumb. The end of her thumb looks like it is just along for the ride.
A friend who got me into steel guitars always said, You want your thumb pick short for control.
I used short picks for years, To me it seemed easy to miss a string with the thumb pick.
Watching Lloyd Green play, He uses the biggest long pick of anyone I have ever seen play steel.
Broke a couple thumb picks, Stopped at a music store on way to a gig. Got a couple short shaft thumb picks. They had some large Dunlop Picks. I bought 2 of them. Figured I could cut them shorter if needed.
I put one of the long picks on, Sat down at my steel. The long pick takes less travel in the arc of movement for pick to contact the string.
The long thumb picks allowed me to hold my hand with easier, More precise movement of the thumb pick. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 9 Jun 2024 11:22 pm
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I'm not quite sure I understand your thumb description Fred, but I have to check myself to keep my thumb straight out away from the fingers sometimes. I tend to get lazy and just pick with my thumb in a forward motion v. the proper way of moving the entire hand forward along with the thumb keeping the whole hand in the same position.
When I do this, yes, I fail to strike the string squarely...that hinders the tone and also wears out thumb picks prematurely, so that's a bad habit I have to constantly be aware of. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2024 8:38 am
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Jerry-
This is a double-jointed “outy” thumb
This is a straight thumb
My picks wear out on the leading edge too! The pick scrapes across the string as I push it through. The scraping sound is noticeable on the wound strings. With my straight thumb, I will never be able to strike a string squarely, but I do seek to minimize the angle.
And please, nobody mention the Dunlop “Zookie” pick. I tried it. Hated it. They shoulda called it the Kookie. |
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