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Topic: Could S. G. Changers Be A Lot Of Hooey? |
Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 10:53 am |
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| I may muster up the wherewithal to attempt a new approach to introducing a simplistic tone changer system, totally original in concept. The steel guitar will have a deceptive appearance, by eliminating the modern changer system in its entirety. IF I do carry out the work this winter, it will also feature a raised handcrafted upright fretboard. It will be interesting to follow through with the original concept. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 11:35 am
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b0b,
I must satisfy my urge to communicate with other musicians who do not break formation at the very thought of mechanical inquiries. I'd have plenty of time to carry out such a plan, provided nothing in the way of health problems should interfere. It appears without your support it would be a lost cause. Do the usual thing, and follow through with your good insight. There will be no hard feelings, as they used to say many years ago.
Last edited by Bill Hankey on 10 Dec 2010 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 11:41 am
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Can't wait to see it!
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Allan Munro
From:
Pennsylvania, USA and Scotland
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 1:07 pm
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Interesting! I am guessing that there will be cables involved since you and I have discussed that in a previous thread.
I have also mentioned to you before that blue does not suit me as a color and I am, again, holding my breath... Like I said, interesting!!!!!
_________________
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses! |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 1:30 pm
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Could S. G. Changers Be A Lot Of Hooey?
Yes! Mine actually IS! I'd welcome a new changer.
Keep us informed as to your progress regarding approaching the introduction of this changer.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 1:32 pm
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Allan,
Yes Allan, we've both agreed in respect to the wake of cable potentialities. I mean to say loggers, construction crews, doctors, dentists, auto manufacturers, bridge builders, and hundreds of other uses have been found for cable use. Why then, have manufacturers of pedal steel guitars abandoned their use? Why is Paul Bigsby's steel so valuable equipped with cables? Questions such as these are way overdue for reasonable answers. Potential qualities are not the same as a creeping vine. They lie dormant for centuries without change. The steel rod, with its push and pull qualities, is quite limited by comparison. |
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Georg SĆørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 2:21 pm
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| All I know is that (most) changers are at the wrong end of PSGs. Move them over to the right end and I won't care what you pull changes with - as long as your solution is easy to tune and stays in tune. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 2:48 pm
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I am coming up with a totally new pedal steel guitar design where the strings do not move at all -- no stretching or slackening. But, instead, the cabinet is stretched and shrunk. I will post my results as soon as I get the cabinet areas under strings #3 and #6 arrive at the same time.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Archie Nicol R.I.P.
From:
Ayrshire, Scotland
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 2:56 pm
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This Paul Redmond design uses two changers. One at each end.
Arch. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 3:03 pm
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Look at my BosSan -- tuning keys attached to fingers at both ends
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 3:16 pm
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Doug,
As Georg pointed out, steel guitars (bar none) are "notorious" for detuning. The guitars in most instances are not at fault; although it is possible that the fault could be located in the pedals, pull rods, and changers, etc. If a steel is essentially intact, and free from faulty workmanship, detuning is the process of expansion or contraction of the steel strings, due to the slightest changes in temperature wherever the steel is setup. As for double and triple raise problems, that are found in some mechanical movements, the problem would not exist, due to the emphasis placed on tonality changes. |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 3:34 pm
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Chris Lucker,
Are you a machinist, or do you have an associate who has assisted you in making such changes from the norm? It's a real treat to view something original for the first time. I'll bet finding the space for those tuners, was not a simple task. Thanks for the pictures.
Archie,
Thanks for showing the double changer steel. It's something that hadn't occurred to me.
Last edited by Bill Hankey on 12 Dec 2010 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2010 7:31 pm
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| Bill Hankey wrote: |
| As Georg pointed out, steel guitars (bar none) are "notorious" for detuning. |
I've had no detuning problems on modern guitars. In my opinion, steel guitar players are "notorious" for playing out of tune. It's rarely a problem with the instrument.
I would be interested in a design that would instantly allow me to change what each pedal or lever does. That's an innovation I could use.
_________________
-š¯•“š¯•†š¯•“- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 1:29 am
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I like the Steel Guitar to look like a guitar in that it should have a bridge at one end,a nut, some keys at the other end and a nut sitting behind it.
As far as the changer it shouldn't be showing its guts. That old standard looks and works just fine.
The mechanical things on a PSG don't really need a change.
I think the next step is to leave it up to the egg heads to come up with high-tech/digital innovations such as real time auto-tune and real time individual string pitch correction for all us pickers that make the band sound bigger by playing out of tune. |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 5:09 am
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b0b,
We are long overdue for an electronic foolproof tuning device to assist in the management of properly tuned instruments. For the relatively few who may be a bit tone deaf, a tuning device built into the pedal steel that would show for example, a straight line made up of short segments to form a continuous line representing 10 or 12 strings. Brushing the strings with a gentle picking action, would show if all preset tunings are in alignment. Any deviation from forming a straight line, would be quickly identified by a numbered segment. There again, it would require a skilled electronics personnel, one with musical interests, to achieve such a goal. Getting back to the original notion of antiquating the STANDARD steel guitar changers, will require assembling a multitude of special notes that will intensify, as proven methodologies suggest less complicated mechanical movements to achieve the same results. Who knows what lies beneath the surfaces of untrammeled hidden recesses of the mind? I believe that the accent in steel guitar manufacturing, has been exceedingly concentrated in the cabinet work, and beautiful layered finishes, complete with inlays. The changers have received much less attention by and large.
Last edited by Bill Hankey on 10 Dec 2010 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Georg SĆørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 5:42 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| In my opinion, steel guitar players are "notorious" for playing out of tune. It's rarely a problem with the instrument. |
I agree on the player-problem, and that should be solved at the player-level.
However, out of the 3 instruments I have, 1 stays "rock-steady" in tune and 2 go audibly out of tune during playing. All 3 instruments are checked and trimmed to rule out obvious mechanical flaws, but even when the player (me) is ruled out the result is still 1 good and 2 not-so-good.
I do find that to be a problem with the instruments in question, but have no idea how widespread the problem is across PSG-land.
| Bo Legg wrote: |
| I think the next step is to leave it up to the egg heads to come up with high-tech/digital innovations such as real time auto-tune and real time individual string pitch correction for all us pickers that make the band sound bigger by playing out of tune. |
Split the PU and insert vocoders in the sound chain. It would sound awful IMO, but should get the pitches right. It would probably also produce players that don't care if they play in tune or not.
Would be fun to hear what a vigorous vibrato sounds like with such "auto-correction"  |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 7:59 am
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| Quote: |
| Getting back to the original notion of antiquating the STANDARD steel guitar changers, will require assembling a multitude of special notes that will intensify, as proven methodologies suggest less complicated mechanical movements to achieve the same results. Who knows what lies beneath the surfaces of untrammeled hidden recesses of the mind? I believe that the accent in steel guitar manufacturing, has been exceedingly concentrated in the cabinet work, and beautiful layered finishes, complete with inlays. The changers have received much less attention by and large. |
As Bo Legg would suggest, maybe the changer(s) have received all the attention they need. Modern changers seem to exploit the physics of the fulcrum and lever quite adequately IMO. Possibly, changers could use a bit of tweaking or fine tuning so to speak, but the physics still remain the same. The electronic solution only looks good on paper to me. If your instrument is corrected electronically so that it is 'perfectly' in tune, it still may sound out of tune, unless all the other instruments in any given situation are 'perfectly' in tune as well. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 9:11 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| In my opinion, steel guitar players are "notorious" for playing out of tune. It's rarely a problem with the instrument. |
| Georg SĆørtun wrote: |
I agree on the player-problem, and that should be solved at the player-level.
However, out of the 3 instruments I have, 1 stays "rock-steady" in tune and 2 go audibly out of tune during playing. All 3 instruments are checked and trimmed to rule out obvious mechanical flaws, but even when the player (me) is ruled out the result is still 1 good and 2 not-so-good.
I do find that to be a problem with the instruments in question, but have no idea how widespread the problem is across PSG-land. |
A steel guitar should not be tuned before it is played! If the strings are not warmed by the hands before tuning, it will quickly go out of tune during the first song. You should play for two or three minutes before tuning your guitar.
After that, any modern guitar worth its salt should stay in tune.
_________________
-š¯•“š¯•†š¯•“- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Georg SĆørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 9:52 am
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| b0b wrote: |
A steel guitar should not be tuned before it is played! If the strings are not warmed by the hands before tuning, it will quickly go out of tune during the first song. You should play for two or three minutes before tuning your guitar.
After that, any modern guitar worth its salt should stay in tune. |
That's pretty much the procedure I follow - checking tuning after I've played a couple of tunes, and I agree that all PSGs should stay in tune for hours afterwards.
Problem with my 2 not-so-good PSGs is that they wander slightly (a few cents) in open tuning, and are anything but stable when pedaling - body-drop etc/whatever. The good PSG OTOH has same string-type, more and longer change-throws, gets exposed to the same environmental variations, and stays in tune.
If Bill is aiming at solving anything, he must construct something that results in a PSG that is "rock-steady" over time and when pedaling. We - the players - can take care of the tuning-procedure, when the platform - the PSG - is stable. |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 11:36 am
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Georg,
The eyes cannot see minuscule flaws and blemishes produced by inferior workmanship. Just tipping a pedal steel upside down and placing it on a table isn't good enough. It's the trial run through a lot of full tone raises and lowers that offer solid proof of a quality instrument. If the instrument requires retuning, it would most likely be an ongoing problem. Magnification is the key to finding flaws not visible to normal eyesight. I've dismantled a few different changer mechanisms in the past. The interior working parts failed to measure up to my expectations. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 1:02 pm
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I prefer steels with simple changer mechanisms, there are less moving parts, so less to go wrong, and they usually have rock solid tuning.
Once they're set, they stay set  |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 1:30 pm
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I like simple as well. Probably why I lean towards ZBs and old Fenders!
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 10 Dec 2010 3:03 pm
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Bill, if changer flaws were so miniscule as to require magnification to be seen, explain how that might adversely affect said changer's performance.  |
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