Question for those that +/- E's on Right Knees: 3 + 5 ideas?

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

I'm just getting into pedal steel.
Okay, so I'm getting into it for a third time...

I needed to concentrate to get myself up and running on the dobro first, so I kept quitting. I'm now playing full-time (yes I'm poor, and have no kids), so I think I'm at the point where I can diversify.

I studied music in College, so I know my theory, and know what all of the pedals and levers do, but I haven't yet developed any sort of autonomic habits that may be hard to break. I feel it's a good time to really think out my copedent before I procede.

That, and there are some rods missing from the used instrument I just bought, so before I order more parts, I want to get an idea as to where I want the changes to go.

I have been reading all of the various archived threads about knee lever setups, including the schools of E's together, and E's apart.

I am intrigued by having the E raises and lowers together on the right knee. It seems to eliminate having to go cross-kneed on the pedals for the most part. It would also seem possible to make the whole tone change between the raise and lower a little smoother, if one is able to keep the levers tight to the leg.

So, with Emmons pedals ABC, and E lowers on RKL, and E raises on RKR, what would you do with the three left levers?

Thanks for your advice.
Rob.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

There are several changes that are considered standard, pretty much, regardless of their location. These are what I would go with.

Check out this copedent from the tunings link above. Looks a lot like what you are considering minus the LKR change. http://b0b.com/tunings/lindsey.htm

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Thanks Jerry,

I hadn't seen Jim Lindsey's set-up.

What I've been considering so far is:

LKL: Raise 1 a tone, Raise 2 semi-tone, Lower 6 a tone
LKV: Lower 5 and 10 a semitone
LKR: Lower 2 a tone with half-stop, Raise 7 a semitone, and Lower 9 a semitone (might be able to time the 7th string raise with the half stop on two)

The only thing that I can see might be a bit uncomfortable for me would be the LKL and Vertical together to get 1,3, and b7 of II7 on strings 4, 5, and 6. Afraid I might lift the guitar off the ground.

The 6th string lower, split with the B pedal is cross-kneed, but I don't mind going that way, it's the other direction I have trouble with.

I was also looking at reversing the two outside Left levers from that, which makes the B pedal + 6th string lower split easier, but makes the 6th string lower harder to combine with the Vertical lever's 5 and 10 lower.

Either way, I think that gets me most of the modern "standard" changes without too much trouble.
Not that there's anything wrong with how the guitar is set up now, I'm just musing as to what might be best for me.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Couple comments: The 6--, 1++ and 2+ can be pretty stiff sometimes with all those changes. It is my opinion that the action would be easier if you reversed the LKL and LKR changes. The leverage is stronger pulling in toward your body generally. I'm sure there are those here that have tried all of those changes. Their input will likely be valuable.

Best of luck with your arrangement and steel guitar progress.

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Thanks Jerry,

The stiffness of the levers is something I hadn't considered. I've realized that most of my rationale for wanting to try the E's on the right knees have to do with my trouble activating the LKL and particularly the LKR in conjunction with the LKV.

I was just reading the thread on the B to Bb lower on the LKV, and it dawned on me that my problems with the change would be solved if I had a longer Vertical lever that pivoted farther to the right.

I believe I shall set the guitar (Carter) back to the factory copedent (maybe add the second string raise on RKL), and possibly further down the line change up the vertical so I never have to push right at the pivot point.

Jim Lindsey (Louisiana) · From: Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)

Hi, Rob ...
Saw your post and thought I'd add my input since I run my "E" pulls on the right knee.

My first steel was set up with the "E" pulls on the right knee, like Gary Hogue used. And, just like Hogue did, I run with the "E" lowers on my right knee right and the "E" raises on my right knee left and it always felt very comfortable and worked extremely well for me.

I don't get too messed up when I sit in on a guitar with the "E" pulls on the left knee, but I must admit that my "pedal foot" gets tired really fast if I sit in for very long on a guitar where I'm having to work the pedals and the "E" pulls all on the same leg. I guess I'm just too used to having the "E" pulls on the right knee. Smile

The one thing I would say that might take a little extra effort by having the "E" pulls on the right knee is in your ankle control of the volume pedal. Some guys convert from left knee to right knee "E" pulls and never have a volume pedal issue, while for others it seems to take some getting used to. I started out having my "E" pulls on the right knee and have always played that way, so I guess I was used to it right from the start, but over the years I've talked with a few other players who converted from "E" pulls on the left knee to "E" pulls on the right and some of them told me that it played just a little havoc with their volume control right at first until they got used to it, but was no problem afterward.

I've always been comfortable with my left knee lever setup and my copedent is still the same, except on my current guitar I do not have the rear left knee lever left that lowered my B strings to an A# (I simply half-pedal whenever I need to lower my B a half tone) ... and, on the "center" set of C6th levers, I no longer have the vertical that raised the 1st string D to a D#. My current guitar is 8&7 instead of 8&9.

Regarding stiffness, when I was playing MSA guitars I had the 2nd string half & full lower on my LKR because the action on that knee lever always felt a bit stiff. After I went to Emmons and Mullen guitars, I changed the position and went to having the 2nd string pulls on my LKL and it was quite comfortable. For my 6th string whole tone lower, I've always had that on my vertical and that one has always been very comfortable for me. On my current guitar, if I had to choose a knee lever with the stiffest action, I'd have to call it my LKR which raises my 1st string a whole and lowers my 7th a whole (though all my knee levers are easy, this one seems to have the most tension on my guitar).

However you decide to set up your guitar, I wish you all the best in finding the set up that's perfect for you. Smile

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Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Thanks for your advice Jim,

I definitely like your set-up. I have also been toying with the idea of leaving the 5 and 10 lower off, as it seems to be fairly easy to half-pedal the A pedal on the guitar I just bought. Haven't practiced combining that with the E lever yet. Perhaps tonight, when I get home from a bluegrass gig.

I'd like to say, it was Gary Hogue's playing on Marty Stuart's "Red Red Wine and Cheating Songs" that first made me say to myself "I gotta play that instrument!"
He was a wonderful musician.

Thanks for sharing your set-up.
Rob.

Jim Lindsey (Louisiana) · From: Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)

richard burton · From: Britain

Rob,
In my opinion you are handicapping yourself from the outset with a very non-standard copedent.

With all due respect to Jim, his setup is unusual, and, to me, would be more difficult to play than a more regular setup.

Why not put your E's on the left knee, like most other players, especially as you are new to the pedal steel.

There's been plenty of newbies on this forum over the years, who all try to re-invent the wheel, but they soon give up on the steel altogether, and we don't hear from them anymore.

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Aside from buying used steels or sitting in on someones rig, I don't see any reason why a right knee E change steel would be any handicap to learn on.
The consensus here on the forum is that there is no standard copedant.

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Again, I'd like to thank everyone for their input. It's great to get different opinions.

I don't feel as though I'm reinventing the wheel. It's more like choosing the right tires. Currently, I feel as though I'm going into a street race with snow tires on.

Unfortunately, it seems my greatest handicap to this point has been the industry standard Emmons setup. I find it rather uncomfortable, and it is one of the reasons that I gave up the PSG the first time. There are plenty of other reasons involved as well, but those distractions (fiddle, mandolin, guitar, banjo, bass, and saxophone) are no longer an issue. My second steel I only sold because I was suddenly getting a lot of work on the fiddle, and desperately needed to upgrade my fiddle and bow. Gear out, gear in. A couple of years later, and after some serious muscular battle between bow-grip technique, and bluegrass Dobro picking technique, the fiddle is gone, and the PSG is back.

I studied jazz in College as a sax player, and there are all sorts of great sounding vintage instruments, some that are smooth and simple to operate, and some that are really hard to play. It's similar to steel guitar mechanics. There are some mechanisms that have been abandoned over time as new technology is developed. There have been many advancements in saxophone key placements over the years, which have made the instrument easier to play. I feel the adjustment of what changes go where on the Pedal Steel is more like choosing a sax with the keys mechanisms that you want. If something is uncomfortable for you, you're really not going to feel confident in it, and you're not going to use it.

My 1932 Conn Baritone Sax was much like a Push-Pull. Nothing sounded like it, but it was not an easy play.

There are some changes that I will definitely use because they suit my personal musicality that are difficult for me with the standard Emmons setup, and other changes that are not difficult that I won't use. For example, the combination of A, B, X, and E's lower to give you a full diminished 7th chord is really awkward, pushing against the pivot of the vertical (If the vertical pivoted at the other end, it wouldn't be an issue, and I suppose I could change the way that lever operates). Conversely, the combination of A, B, X, and E raises is not difficult
to achieve at all, but results in an out of tune version of the same thing available one fret up with no pedals or levers at all. It seems to me to be a missed opportunity.

I have been looking at various ways to solve these little problems, and I'm not trying to insult anybody's setups, or say that I know better than Buddy Emmons! I know that I will never be 10% of the player that he is, but what's right for him is not necessarily the right thing for me. On the dobro, Jerry Douglas will often play ten notes in a row with his thumb. Sounds great. I will never do that. It is so unnatural for me, that two weeks of practice at that made me want to quit. Thing is, when I do what comes more naturally for me, I sound like me, which ain't so bad at all.

I considered having the E raises and lowers on opposite knees, and it's actually my friend and teacher who has been playing professionally for 30 years with the Emmons setup who suggested I take a serious look at Paul Franklin's copedent. He said if he were to start again, he'd do that. He knows me well, and has watched me buy 8 dobros and sell 6 in the last 7 years, trying to find the right thing (I have), and buy countless bars, picks and capos looking for the
right thing (I have), and knows I won't be happy until I am comfortable. I know that what I start with likely won't be what I finish with, but that's all part of it. I've tried twice before, and I know what I didn't like, so far...

All of that said. I have decided on a copedent. It will require me getting one more pedal added eventually, but I was always planning on that. I can keep the E changes together, and on the left knees, if I change my setup to Day. I did this with the second PSG I owned, and loved it. My ankle is much more comfortable, and I can pivot either direction with virtually no movement of my knee. The vertical is in a good position to use in conjunction with the LKL (E's lower), and I don't have to give up any combinations.

The copedent I've been working on came together when I saw Tommy White's setup, and it's got everything that I want in changes, and comfort.

I won't be able to afford that fourth pedal for a while, so I'll be giving up the 1st and 2nd string unison raises for a few months, but I'll get them on there eventually.

I was hoping to hear from a few more people who do raise and lower both on the right knee concerning where they put everything else, but it does seem apparent there aren't that many of them out there. Or maybe they're too busy playing. I hope so.

Thanks to everyone who replied. I appreciate everyone sharing their time and experience.
Happy pickin',

Rob

Speakin' of which, I feel more like a keyboard player sitting here. Time to make some steel guitar music...

(edited for format. I drafted it in my email, as it was taking too long, and it got kinda funky when copied over)

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

having the Es on 1 leg & the E raises on the other is a standard for many including myself
easier that way to use both for the whole tone lower or raise
nevertheless, i've noticed that some have the advantage of playing chromatic scales/notes by having the Es lowered on string 4 & the Eb lower on string 2 lower w: lever D on separate legs

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Rob, check out my E9 changes (overlook the complexity of 7 knee levers!). I recommend you reverse your planned LKL and LKR. I use the LKR and RKL together all the time for a 5 chord and other things, and ergonomically moving both knees towards each other is more balanced.

I have the luxury of having the LKR 6th string whole tone lower separate from the top 2 strings being raised on the same lever, which yields some nice chords; but you can live with them together, as I do on my 4+5 Carter.

If you're inclined to add knee levers as useful tools, then having the E's up and down on the right leg allows you to couple those heavily used levers with more and more changes on the left knee. Very handy. This amount of complexity isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it suits me fine.

It's not shown on this chart, but I have splits: pedal B with LKR string 6 lower; pedal A with LKV. Compensators are to get more chords in perfect tune (I temper tune).

I personally don't recommend having E's up and down on separate knees, you'll never want to use both together, and with that setup you've minimized drastically the number of useful combinations of levers; i.e., if you lower E's with RKL, and E's raise is on, say, LKL, then with a 5 lever setup, you have only 2 other KL's to use with RKL. With my setup, E's raise and lower each can be used with any of the 3 levers on the left leg. Hope that makes sense.

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Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Crowbear, thanks for your post. Yeah, I had been considering trying the E changes on different knees, to smooth out the whole tone change, but it does introduce some problems getting all of the combinations I want, and am already using.

Thanks for your help with the sale of Eldridge's Carter. That's the guitar I'm setting up now. Sounds great, the price was good, and it's black...

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

John, thanks for you input.

I really like your copedent. I am especially envious of the Mooney lever. So far, I've been working on songs that I play with my various bands, just playing the melody, harmonized both with a note above, or a note below, making sure I can play them out of all of the pedal and lever combinations. The one thing that keeps getting to me is not being able to raise 4 a whole tone without raising 5 too. I can use the first string, but it requires me to pick-block string 4 to let 5 still ring. I'll get better at that, but that lever would sure do the trick.

I currently have my guitar set up like Tommy White, minus his fourth pedal:

Pedals: CBA
LKL: 4 and 8 lower
LKV: 6 lower with split
LKR: 4 and 8 raise
RKL: 5 and 10 lower with split
(Tommy White also seems to do a half stop so that he can lower 5 a whole tone, but I can't see a way I can do this and still employ a split tuning with my Carter)
RKR: 2 and 9 lower

I like it a lot.
If I was going to change anything, I'd still keep the pedals set up in the Day arrangement (far more comfortable for me), but I'd put the E changes on the right knee. In this arrangement I could get all of the combinations I need in a really comfortable way.

Pedals: CBA
LKL: 6 lower
LKV: 5 and 10 lower
LKR: 2 and 9 lower
RKL: 4 and 8 raise
RKR: 4 and 8 lower

The E's lower is on RKR to be able to hit it with the 6 lower on LKL with both legs moving out, to avoid moving the guitar around. This also makes the A+F combination, as well as the B+Eb combination opposite rocks of the left foot and right knee.

I also really like that the two split tunings would be ergonomically easy to achieve. I could never actually use the vertical on and off with the A pedal in the Emmons setup.

I would still be giving up a couple of things. I still don't have the first and second string raises, but I may still yet add them on a pedal in the fourth position. If I want to add the Franklin change, a pedal in the zero position lowering 5 and 10 would be in the perfect place to combine with the 6 lower on LKL.

I don't believe I'll add all of those changes to my current guitar, but it sure would be nice to have a 5 pedal and 6 lever setup someday. Then I could do all of that, and add your Mooney lever too.

That all seems more than I need right now. As I've heard from others, "Lloyd Green didn't have those changes". True, and there are a lot of other greats that didn't have them either.

The way I see it, I'm really not likely to become a great, so I can use all the help I can get...

Rob.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Your current copedent plan is spot on, Rob, have fun with it!

You might raise string 1 to G# on your LKV, or just up to G, as I do on mine. That's a classic but still very useful change.

Here's a tip for those of you lacking the top 2 string raises on a knee lever: pick those strings, slide up 2 frets higher, and lower string 2 a half step. Voila, the notes you want! Not as easy as the lever, but very do-able.

I also just leave out string 2 and simply slide string 1 up a whole step when I'm feeling lazy, that's the dominant note you hear most when the string pairs are raised.
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

John: What is a LKfwd? Does your knee move towards the front apron of the guitar to activate the lever? If yes, could you post some photos or a diagram showing how the mechanism makes the 90 degree turn from the direction of your knee to line up with the axis of the changer.

Rob: I would be hesitant to try to put the first string whole tone raise on a vertical lever. The raise requires a lot of travel; probably more than any other on the tuning. You may not have enough room between the guitar and the top of your thigh for such a long throw.

In my experience short throw changes work best on verticals. The fifth string half tone lower, or the sixth string whole tone lower (provided you use a plain sixth string) both work well on verticals.

I have my E lowers on my right knee and my E raises on my left knee. Perhaps I'm just stuck in my ways, but I like this set-up. I frequently make quick transitions from A&F (or just F lever) to E lever, and I don't want the lag time that would occur if the E lower and raise were on the same knee, while my knee (whether left or right) moves from one side to the other.

Another advantage of having the E lowers on the right knee is that it frees up the left foot to activate the A floor pedal without touching the B pedal. If the E lower is on the left knee (almost always going left) it is hard to use it and hit the A pedal at the same time. I use A and E lever frequently.

Another consideration is what works well on your guitar. I have tried changes that I eventually abandoned because, although they looked good on paper, they were too ergonomically hard to use, I could not get them to work reliably (play in tune), or I just couldn't tolerate the excessive travel or pedal/lever pressure. The more exotic the change the more trouble I have had. Simple is often times better.

Sounds like you have done a great job thinking through your copedent. Everything is a compromise, and the compromises you are considering are very reasonable. Just find what you like and play it.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

my copedent developed independently from the rest of the steel world, evidently. based on backwards A&B pedals (pedal 1..g#-a....pedal 2 b-c#) ..i ended up with rkl lowering e's to eb's...rkr raise e-f#....lkr e to f...works well for me.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

I agree with Paul, you DON'T want that long thin string raise on a vertical; it's bad enough on a hanging knee lever!

I also would not put the string 6 whole tone lower on the vertical, I use it all the time with E's lowering, so make that an ergonomically happy picture. On LKL is perfect as you have it planned.

Paul, here's the initial sketch of my design concept for the LKFwd, Left Knee Forward. Don't have any pix yet of the actual knee lever, but the principal worked out very well and looks very similar to this.

It's still a little stiff to activate it, my tech Jim Palenscar and I have done everything we know to get the action short and easy, but with 3 raises on it, that's asking a lot. If any mechanical engineer knows any special way to make it even easier, please advise. We even added raise helpers on strings 1 and 2. Despite the stiffness, it's great having so many useful and musical changes in that left knee cluster of levers.

The lever itself is more like a big plate, it's shockingly big, but I can activate LKFwd in combo with LKL or LKR with no problem. Truthfully, I hardly ever do that...but I can if I want.

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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

John: Very ingenious!! No surprise that Palenscar is involved. I get how the force applied to the LKFwd lever gets redirected, but why does the diagram show a physical connection to your RKL lever cross-shaft? Was that just a convenience for the illustration or is there actually such a connection on the guitar?
A bit of topic drift, but ...

richard burton · From: Britain

If you extend the pivot point of the knee lever as near to the keyhead end of the steel, it should make it slightly easier to operate (when you are also activating LKL)

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

I do currently have the 6th string lower on the vertical, a la Tommy White, and it's not bad. I didn't like it combined with the 1st and 2nd string raises because of the tension, so I figured I'd give it a try on its own. With only the two pulls (the lower and the split raise) I think I've got a decent balance of travel and tension. It might still travel a bit far. It's not that easy to split with just the B pedal on the fly, but I could get used to it in time. In my current Day setup, the E lowers are on LKL, and are really easy to combine with the vertical.

I just may yet set it up with the E changes on the right knee. I was looking at John McClung's chart again, and the setup that I was envisioning is really the same as his (minus two levers) with everything mirrored because of the Day pedal arrangement. The only thing stopping me is that I'll need to procure a few more parts. I don't have the extra rods I'll need for the left knees.

I suppose I'm also a little iffy on how I'm going to put a split rod on the vertical 5 and 10 lower without stiffening my A or C pedals, which will force me to put at least one of them into a different hole on the changer. Right now, with that change on RKL, the bell crank is the closest to the changer, and I found enough room to fit the split tuning rod in between the rods for the two pedals, so that I was able to keep my A pedal in the slowest position. Now that I have that split, there's no way I want to go without. I rarely used that change with the stock Carter setup. I wonder why they don't set them up with that split to begin with?
Also, is the Carter changer really quad raise/double lower? I can't imagine getting any of the changes into that raise closest to the body. Not unless there were no cross-shafts for the Right Knee Levers. You'd have to bend the rods pretty badly. To me it seems more like a triple raise/double lower with a hole for show.

I'd also like to look into adding some compensators. I'd start with the F# strings. I sure would like to tune string 7 in particular to be the 9th of E, and have it compensated to be the 6th of A. Perhaps I should start a new topic, or send an email, but I'm wondering John, please, if you wouldn't mind passing along the bell crank and changer positions you might recommend for the compensators you employ? Are you able to get them to pull at the same time?

I like that LKForward idea too. Very cool.
Thanks,
Rob.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

To Paul: the changes now on LKFwd were on a 2nd RKL, but that was physically impossible to manage along with the volume pedal, at least for me. Mike Perlowin has one that I tried and it seemed OK, but it was just a one string half step raise, so the tension wasn't as challenging.

So when we designed the LKF, we just left the changes on that not-easily added RKL-Fwd bell crank, linking it to the LKF, that was the minimal muss and fuss at that point.

Richard: on the actual lever, the pivot point is as far under the keyhead as we could get it, just as you suggest. You wouldn't believe the challenges in crafting that puppy! Palenscar's a genius...and says he'll never do another one, so don't ask. Seriously!!

I'll get pix of the contraption one day and post back here for y'all.
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kevin ryan · From: San Marcos, California

Hey John, it was nice seeing you at Jim's shop couple weeks ago. I would like to add my 2 cents here regarding setups. When I got my first pedal guitar in 75 it was an MSA and it came with the raise and lowers of the 4+8 on the right leg. RLR-- lowered and RLL -- raised the pitches. Reese told me that was the setup when they sent these guitars out. It was the standard for them. Also for the last 15 years, I have had my 1st and 2nd string raises on a vertical lever and it works perfect. I also have my 6th string whole step lower on that same vertical and it works great and comfortable with any other knee lever combination I need to engage.

Recently I have decided to make some major changes in my setup thanks to the mighty Jim Palenscar! and it has opened up a really cool set of things I could not do before. I love the PF pedal but realized for me that change needed to be split on 2 separate knees so that I could also engage pedals independently. With the 6 string lower on a vertical right above your 6 string half tone raise pedal "B pedal" and lowering your 5th string a whole tone with your right leg in my case RLL allows me to get some really great sounds that I could not do with the PF pedal. Still have the PF change on my 1st pedal.

I guess my point is that if you practice alot, you will get comfortable with whatever you have. I remember years ago the road player for the Kendalls sat at my guitar and told me that my knee levers were setup wrong. He was setup emmons style but I got very use to what I had. I am curious to the forward lever on your guitar. I saw Jim working on it and loved the idea. Hmmm maybe..... Naw, I better not.

David Beckner · From: Kentucky, USA

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