E9 0r C6 ?

Ed Altrichter · From: Schroeder, Minnesota, USA

Hi folks,

I'm used to playing a non-pedal
steel guitar in C6 tuning and now
I'm thinking about learning how to
play a pedal steel.

I'm wondering if there would be
an advantage in learning to play
in E9 tuning, instead of using C6
(Or vice-versa) ?

How would one describe in words the difference between the sound of one,
as compared to the other ?

Since I only play for my own
entertainment I play TUNES
(Webb Pierce, Lefty Frizzell, etc.)
and not back-up or fill-ins
for singers. Would that come into consideration ?

Thanks, Ed

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I think you'll find that a lot of your C6 stuff will transfer to E9, and you can get most of those C6 sounds on E9. If you're only going to learn one neck, E9 is probably better...there's also a lot more tabs and other learning resources available for E9 than C6, so that's a definite advantage. Also, it's much cheaper/easier to find a single neck E9 guitar than a C6 guitar.

Don't know how to describe the difference in sound, but here's some examples of typical E9 and C6 sounds...though you can play a lot of those sounds on either neck.
E9:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbjViunwfvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP8YbVus_TE
C6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htmf8MkuHhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Mx5lhreMY
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C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Since you did not say how many strings you have on your lapsteel and what style of music you like, it is difficult to say which tuning (E9th or C6th) would be best to start on pedals.

So I will take 2 scenarios:

1st; let me assume you play your lap C6 in a "Western Swing" style mostly. IE: using many more chords and less single or two string melody runs.

In this case, by all means concentrate on learning what beauty pedals would embelish to what you are already used to only on a C6 Pedal Steel.

2nd; let me assume you play your lap C6 in a "Jerry Byrd" style mostly. IE: using MORE single note 2 or 3 string melody runs, and less chording, then I would strongly suggest you go to pedals with E9th in mind. The following is why:

With a few minor hindrances, you have much of your C6 voicings using what we call the "E to Eb" knee lever while playing the standard E9th setup on Pedal Steel Guitar.

In fact, IF you are proficient using 3 fret slants and (2 fret slants), and paricularly if you use "split slants" as JB was so adept at, then you (in just a short while) will love E9th, because it will fit right in perfectly with what you are doing now, only with awesome resolve possibilities not possible with a lap steel. Plus it will embellish what JB did in a most beautiful way.

What's more, on the longer scaled PSG's it is somewhat difficult to administer accurately fast slants at the lower frets. On the PSG you achieve this with pedals and/or knee levers, without having to slant.

Hope this helps dear person. There is much more, but this is enough to get you started in the right direction, I believe. And may Jesus bless you in all of your noble quests.

c.
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Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

Ed
I to come from the non/pedal side also -- I’m not new to pedals but i can tell you E9th with a minimum of 3 & 2 works well with non/pedal C6th ( 8 string ) one knee lever will change the E to Eb -- this gives you a B6th open tuning -- you can play all your C6th non/pedals tunes with out relearning -- you only need to work around string 9 & 2

good luck

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Since you are familiar with the C6th tuning, I certainly would give the C6th pedal tuning a try.
Those who are starting out and have a hard time figuring on which side of the guitar to sit on, the E9th is an easier neck to learn on. It is basically the A tuning and the E tuning all on one neck. The C6th is a different animal.

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

I went with a S10 C6. I haven't looked back. But I'm not a big country player. I play a really wide variety of music including alot of jazz age pop. Since you already play C6, I would stay with it unless you intend to work (The E9 neck presents alot more opportunities) or unless you really love the E9 sound. What else would be the point of changing?
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Stephen Cordingley · From: Ontario, Canada

Isn't the E9 a little less challenging for the foot pedal technique than the C6?
I'm just starting to mess around with my C6 neck, and I find it trickier to move my foot around between pedals 4-8 (C6 pedals)than between pedals 1-3 (E9 pedals) There are more pedals between which to navigate, although you may use them less(?). The foot pedal action on C6 seems to be a little like working the bass pedals on an organ.

There are (usually) more knee levers to deal with on E9, though...

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

Carl, that is the most succinct and practical collection of tips for starting out on C6 that I have ever seen. Thank you!

John

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

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A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Brian LeBlanc · From: Falls Church, Virginia, USA

...what John said!

i made the mistake of getting a non-pedal to learn C6
...Now I can't stop play'n it...
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ShoBud & Twins

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

There is one difference which I haven't seen discussed in this thread, forgive me if it's here and I missed it.

The E9 tuning, especially in it's most common 10 string variant, is generally voiced in a higher register than the C6th tuning. If you were to play a melody that covers a fairly wide range you would probably have to play it an octave higher on E9 than on C6.

I play 12 string extended E9 tuning which lets me play a lot of melodies in a lower range than I could on a 10 string. I find that if I play them an octave up, which I would have to do on 10 string if I wanted to stay in the same key, they sound thin and whiny to me.

So just throw that in the mix with everything else that has been said.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I don't see the E9th voiced in a higher register than the C6th.
I play with a G on the 1st string on the C6th.
A G# is the high string on the E9th.
We're only talking 1/2 tone here.

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

It is true that if one uses a high G on the C6 both tunings have almost the same limit to the upper range. I guess I should have said that C6 has a wider range, than E9, all on the low side.

However I stand by my comment about being able to play melodies in lower registers, which is my main point.

I will use Charlie Parker's "Donna Lee" as an example, only because I have been working on it lately. It has a range of almost two octaves, from Ab above the treble staff to A natural below the staff. On 10 string E9th you have to play it "starting at" the Ab which is at the 12th fret on string 3. I realize that this is where it is written, concert pitch, but to my ears it sounds too thin. On XE9 or C6 you can play it an octave lower, and it sounds much fatter and IMHO better.

That's what I meant when I said 10 string E9th was voiced in a higher register. I guess I should have said C6th was voiced in a lower register.
My apologies. 8~)

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

...or in F so I can call it Back Home Again in Indiana.

John Clark · From: Arkansas, USA

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g B D

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

My 8-string D6/G copedent has the low range of a standard guitar (down to E), most of the C6th pedals for western swing and enough of the E9th pedals to sound country when I want to. Check out these sounds:

Cowboy Country Revisited with Scott and Gordy

Wine Country Swing with Hugh Harris

I know that there are "modern" things that are beyond my grasp, but I don't really need to do everything. That's why I say, "Eight is enough!".
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John Clark · From: Arkansas, USA

NICE PLAYING, bOb. THE ONLY REASON I EXPERIMENT WITH STUFF LIKE THIS IS TO KEEP THINGS INTERESTING. I'M JUST FINISHING MY 29TH YEAR WITH COUNTRY SINGER MOE BANDY, AND WE HAVE TO PLAY PRETTY MUCH LIKE THE RECORDS. I HAVE THREE DIFFERENT STEELS WITH DIFFERENT SET-UPS, TO MAKE MYSELF THINK WHEN I PLAY, INSTEAD OF GOING ON AUTO-PILOT. JOHN

John Swindle · From: Oregon, USA

Ed, your question about the advantages of learning to play E9 or C6 might be missing an important point - is there any reason you can't do both? It may seem that learning both is just too much. All I can say is that it has not been that way for me. The two tunings don't get all tangled together in my brain, as I sometimes feared.

All of the guys who have responded to your question so far have a lot more experience with pedal steel than I do. But here's a point I haven't seen any of them make yet: each of the necks on my D-10 is an enormous amount of fun. If I had bought a single neck guitar, I'd be missing out on half of that - probably the C6 half.

There's an advantage in buying a used guitar. Later on, when you have a better idea of what works for you, you probably will be able to resell it for just about what you paid.

Good luck, Ed - and have fun!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ok for the newbees that want to learn C6. Are you ready to tackle lesson 3?

Ok let's get started. For those just tuning in, you may wish to check out Lesson 1 and 2 above.

Once again, remember that on C6, pedals 5 and 6 are your "A" and "B" pedals, but don't expect them to do the same thing; or sound the same in any way, shape or form Mad

. They are simply where your foot is; as a base point.

We learned the location of all the non pedaled "keys"; and if you practiced them using the major chords' grip I showed you, while listening to songs, you also learned how to find other related chords with out having to move your bar, all the way up the neck.

In Lesson 2, we learned about the all important diminished 7th chord, which is integral to music itself and how it repeates itself, using 5 and 6.

We finished up lesson 2 by learning a "goodie" and then how to embelish this goodie as the "greats" do.

We also learned 4 string strums with a sweep of the thumb.

Now to lesson 3:

1. Foot on 5 and 6.

2. Listening to a song, pay attention when they are playing the V7 (dominant) chord. ONLY listen for V7 chords. If they are not playing the V7, move the bar to match the I-II-IV and V chords. But every time they go to V7, then concentrate on what follows for now.

3. Move up two frets from the Key fret, and pick strings 3, 4 and 6. Engage the 6th pedal.

You will hear this sound as the SAME sound you hear at the V fret when you are playing on E9th, picking strings 5, 6 and 9. Keep this relative in your mind.

5. Now notice your grip. You are picking two strings together but your 3rd string has a NON picked string in the middle. Cast this grip in your head, for it will be a foundation grip that will be used ALL over the C neck.

6. While the V7 chord is playing in the music, change the strings, But don't change the grip configuration. Simply walk up and down the strings. Yes ALL of them; whether you use a D or G on top. 2 strings together, skip one and then the next one.

7. Like 1, 2 and 4; 2, 3 and 5; 4, 5 and 7 and so on. Continue to walk up and down at the same fret. They will all work. Here is why:

The chord that pedal 6 makes is an F9th chord on open strings (with G on top) or F13th (with a D on top). But they all fit nicely with a V7 chord two frets up from a Key fret.

Do this in every key. LEARN these position for a V7 chord in every key. This is so important.

Practice! practice! practice!

Good luck.

More next time, if'n ya want it. Smile

may Jesus bless you in all good things you do,

c.
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A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Stephen Cordingley · From: Ontario, Canada

thanks for the c6 stuff to try

I have been approaching the c6 pedals from a different mindset, perhaps not the "right one":

having played c6 non-pedal, and having some c6 non- pedal tab to work with, I have been trying to use the pedals to eliminate the bar slants required for c6 non-pedal playing.

for example:
using P4 on the 3 and 4th strings to play a

4 slant as
3

3 with P4 engaged
3

(my non pedal tab would show this on the 2nd and 3rd strings as it is tabbed for 6 strings, leaving off the top string on the pedalled neck)

so, my question is :
which pedals are used to eliminate which slants?
(how about reverse slants?!)

(if this question makes sense, I would appreciate any feedback; if I'm way out in left field, kindly ignore me and carry on...)

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Don't forget E9th/B6th Universal
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Little Walter PF-89.
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