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Topic: Uni E9/B6 second string lower? |
David Griffin
From:
Jimmy Creek,Arkansas via Cowtown, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2010 6:42 am |
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What are the advantages/disadvantages of lowering the second string Eb to C# on the same knee lever that lowers the E strings 4 & 7 to Eb?. I don't have enough knee levers to put the second string lower on a knee lever by itself. Should I just give up the pull & use a slant? BTW: I drop the second string from Eb to D on the same lever that raises string 9 from B to D. Thanks! 
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http://www.myspace.com/davidagriffin |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 24 Oct 2010 11:55 am 2nd string lower
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| The advantage is it gives you the equivalent of the first string on a C6 neck for those who tune the first string to D (as opposed to G.) The disadvantage is extra knee lever pressure. For that reason I use a 1/2 stop on string 2 with the 2 and 9 lever. You may be able to rig it so the B-D raise on 9 will give you a feel stop. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2010 5:11 pm
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Well stated David, and dead on.
For newbees, the standard C6th tuning had a G on top. Unless told otherwise, most builders will ship it that way still.
But a number of years ago, Buddy Emmons replaced that G with a D. The reason for this is: It puts in the tuning a very important note that would not work right IF you raised or lowered a string to get that note, and still keep the original note.
And it is great. In fact, players for many years had an E note as their top string. It was not until we went to 10 string necks that the G note became in vogue. Note: the following 6 and 8 and 10 and 12 string C6 and B6 tunings:
| Tab: |
6 8 10a 10b 12a 12b 12c
F# F# F#
D# D# C#
G D G# G# G#
E E E E E D# D#
C C C B B B B
A A A A G# G# G#
G G G G F# F# F#
E E E E E D# D#
C C C C B B B
A A A G# G# G#
F F F E E E
C C B B B
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The original C6 tuning that JB created had 6 strings on it and was tuned as above. This lasted for quite a while until they came out with 8 strings, and above you will see that they added an A note and an F note on the bottom.
Note: NOT all did this, as always, but most did and it became for all practical purposes "standard".
Also, there were a few 7 stringers, but I have not included them in this discussion. Just as there were some 9 string PSG's built by Sho-Bud.
But to keep the chart as simple as I can, I chose to show only the above tunings. I covered this in great detail in my book.
When they went to 10 string PSG's, the C6 neck was tuned like 10a above. And it is still pretty much in vogue. I do not know whether the D note is the majority yet, but I imagine it will be one day.
10b shows what Buddy did. This is a true God send, since it fills a needed "hole" in sooo many voicings and/or chords.
The Universal S-12 is tuned as 12a. And it sligthly modifies the D-10 E9th tuning.
In order for it to emulate C6 tunings, the player holds the top and middle E's to Eb. Check it out, it is almost identical to C6 except one fret lower.
Note: most refer to it as "Eb", but that is musically incorrect. It should be called D# since there is NO Eb in the key of E. But most players and builders do not read music, so it is assumed that when you raise a string it automatically becomes a "sharp" note and when you lower it, it automatically becomes a "flat" note. Thus the discrepency.
When someting catches hold, even if it is dead wrong, it gets cast into stone in short order. It is like the word "irregardless". There is no such word; regardless is sufficient in all contexts. Or the word "caint") 
12c shows you what happens when a Universal player wishes to emulate what Buddy did. And NOW you see why some lower the 2nd string to a C#.
Clever huh? Praise Jesus for Buddy and our ability to "FIND a way!"
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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David Griffin
From:
Jimmy Creek,Arkansas via Cowtown, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2010 7:32 pm
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Yes! It all makes sense now!  Thanks,guys. I was looking at it from an E9 perspective. I just got my first 12 str. uni & was wondering why it was on the E "lower" lever.I've never played C6 before,which in a way has it's advantages(such as not having to get used to the "boo wah" being the 4th pedal ). I'm studying the Jeff Newman DVD & the old Jeff Newman book on the E9/B6 uni approach. Lowering the second str to C# is NOT in the book,but IS on the DVD. Since the book was written in 1980,I guess that makes sense. Thanks to both of you! Carl:it's good to see you back on the forum,your wisdom is sorely needed here.God bless!
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http://www.myspace.com/davidagriffin |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2010 7:37 pm
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TY David,
I forgot to mention something that is a "freebee" on the Universal as shown as 12c in my previous post.
On D-10's, you must sacrifice the high G string (F# 1st string on the Universal) to install the D string.
However, on the U-12, you have BOTH. And I love it.
c
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A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2010 12:31 pm
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I didn't like the extra travel with the D# to C# on the E lever.
I lower my E's to Eb on RKR, and have a Lock to hold them there if I'm playing 6th for any amount of time.
I have a separate lock that has no pedals or levers attatched to it that lowers D# to C#.
Also, D# is my first string. I re-ordered the first 3 strings to D#, G#, F#.
The D# is tucked nicely out of the way on string 1.
The next 8 strings are two stacks of G#, F#, E, B. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 5:29 pm
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
I didn't like the extra travel with the D# to C# on the E lever.
I lower my E's to Eb on RKR, and have a Lock to hold them there if I'm playing 6th for any amount of time.
I have a separate lock that has no pedals or levers attatched to it that lowers D# to C#.
Also, D# is my first string. I re-ordered the first 3 strings to D#, G#, F#.
The D# is tucked nicely out of the way on string 1.
The next 8 strings are two stacks of G#, F#, E, B. |
I don't like it either. The first time I ever saw a player do this was on the later Jeff Newman's guitar. When I sat down to it, I could not believe how stiff that knee lever was.
I said NO way. That would kill me.
So I compromised thusly:
1. LKL lowers the E's to Eb.
2. My LOK lever which also lowers the E's to Eb also lowers the 2nd string to C#.
It is not perfect, but again, I could never get used to a knee lever that stiff.
To each his own.
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Rich Cottle
From:
Sacramento California
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 8:19 pm I've had that for years
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Yea lowering the number two string a whole step is kinda wiered but so is bringing the ninth string a step and half up , its all what you get use to, I bought an MSA u-12 from tom bradshaw twenty years ago and the f lever and e levers were on the left knee and tom said that you wont like it, or you'll like it the other way better, and I trird it and tried it and then finally deciede to do what tom said, it took me about a year and I got the e lever on the rkr the f lever stayed the same, this guitar was using the number three from the inside bell crank holes on the a,b and c pedals,man it was like pressing iron at the weight pile , he claimed that was the status quo, that was just plain silly, I put em where they belong, than I did what you are experincing lowering the second string a whole step , a jeff newman idea,and again it took about a year to get use to , hugh brownie has been telling me for years that he doesn't break strings hardly at all cause he tunes his guitar to d-ninth , again its taken about a year and I now play in D-9th/A-6th , I hardly break strings, it has a deeper tone and it plays alot easier, but like I say its just getting use to it thats all
 Rich Cottle  |
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Rich Cottle
From:
Sacramento California
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 8:31 pm I've had that for years
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| That note is the two note of the scale, also the high number one string gives you the high five note in the scale on the six neck, you also have a high six note on the third string which the d-10 doesn't have, I pretty much have used the jeff newman setup except for I use the emmons not the day, after I got the newman video I was hooked and like he says you can get standard c-six tab and their just lyin to ya when they say the second string when they mean the fourth and they say the fourth fret and they mean the fifth, this also takes some gettin used to, but its worth it, also I agree with jeff newman that the lock is a bad Idea, that is like he says you cant go back and forth very easy, which I do alot , and also like he says having the boo-waa on the forth pedal is where its at, I put the eight pedal back on as the major seventh change on account of I like it, I do have to say that grabbing the second string is quite a stretch on account that you use that string constantly on the six neck,but again you get use to it Rich Cottle |
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David Griffin
From:
Jimmy Creek,Arkansas via Cowtown, USA
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Posted 28 Oct 2010 6:35 am
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Rich: Did you have to change string gauges when you changed to D9/A6? I tried tuning my new 12 str. Uni to D9/A6 & I had a lot of trouble with the 11th & 12th strings being too "floppy",especially when using the "boo-wah" pedal. If so,what string gauges do you use?Thanx!>>>dg
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http://www.myspace.com/davidagriffin |
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Rich Cottle
From:
Sacramento California
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Posted 28 Oct 2010 8:44 am Sloppy Strings
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Yea the strings do get kinda sloppy and you have to literally reajust all the stops, I use the same string gauges "the jeff newman setup",I have been doing it for about a year now and I have had no problems,keeps perfect tune and of course you have to adjust for cabinet drop on certin strings and pedals, I have it on four of my guitars and I'll never go back to E9th/B6th
 Rich Cottle  |
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