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Topic: What is a good tool for holding the ball joint socket? |
John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 6:48 pm |
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i am referring to the part that goes on the end of the pedal rod, has the sliding collar, and hooks onto the ball on the pedal.
I find I need to hold it pretty securely with something if I want to tighten or loosen the back-up/locking nut. I have been using thin-jaw vise grips, but I am tired of marring the surface. Besides the cosmetic damage it makes the collar not slide so easily.
What do other steel player/tinkerers use for this? |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 6:51 pm
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Hi John,
I usually leave the pedal rod attached to the pedal, then use needle nose pliers to tighten/loosen the lock nut. |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 7:03 pm
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| I am concerned about putting too much force on the ball part, and also when I do that the socket usually ends up at an angle rather than facing the ball straight-on, creating a potential for more friction and wear on the socket. |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 7:16 pm
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They don't really need that much torque.. I hold mine with my fingers and snug up the lock nut with an ignition sized wrench.
Too much torque will break it.. pliers will mar it..
I adjust them, connect them to the ball as square as possible and use the ball to help hold it steady as I give it a snug up.. |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 7:25 pm
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| Mine back-up/lock nuts never stay put if I don't put more torque on them than I can do holding them with my fingers. Sorry. |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 8:35 pm
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| Bo's got the right idea. Hold with fingers and tighten nut with proper size wrench. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 9:45 pm
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I use a pair of vise grips on the ball joint part(my fingers can't hold it that tight) and use the proper wrench for the nut, but like others have said, I don't put a lot of torque on it. Seeing as how yours comes loose to easily, and we don't really adjust the ball joints much, what about a little drop of Lok-Tite, the kind that is made to come apart easily (I don't know which "color" that is).
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Oct 2010 10:21 pm
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| John Groover McDuffie wrote: |
| Mine back-up/lock nuts never stay put if I don't put more torque on them than I can do holding them with my fingers. Sorry. |
You can use a spare ball and leave it in the coupler, then you can easily tighten the lock nut, holding the ball and coupler together with your fingers. (You can remove a ball out of a pedal if you don't have a spare--takes a 5/16" wrench or deep socket) Leave the pedal rod attached to the guitar--you can center the coupler by eye pretty easy then. The lock nut will usually take a 3/8" or an 11/32" wrench, or just a plain ole small cresent wrench. A pliers or cresent wrench will also open wide enough to go over the ball stub AND the coupler together to lightly hold it. You can put a little tape on the coupler first to protect the finish, too. Hope this helps some. 
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Emmett Roch
From:
Texas Hill Country
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 2:24 am
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I've used a 5/16 wrench and a 4" crescent for years.
_________________
On Earth, as it is in Texas |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 9:51 am
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| Thanks James, using a spare ball is a great idea! |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 10:24 am
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John, instead of a spare ball, use a ball end Allen head driver with the nice yellow handle, or even an Allen wrench that fits. You are not going to snap off or bend an Allen wrench, and I am sure you have a set around.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 10:30 am
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Pet peeve of mine too JGMcD. I'd like to see them come with 2 flats milled on either side so you could use a wrench to hold it.
Some interesting ideas here on how to deal with it though. |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 10:32 am
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Thanks, Chris. Another good idea. I knew I'd get some helpful ideas from my Fo-Bros!
You too, Jerry. Two flats on the collar would be very handy! |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 4:32 pm
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Ok, I used a ball-end allen wrench today and did flare the edges of the socket a little, and had to pound them back down with light taps from a hammer to get the collar to slide over them readily.
I find that it takes a lot of torque to get the rod threaded all the way down into the socket. I have actually shortened the pedal rods about 1/4" during this overhaul, I have chased the threads in the sockets with a 10/32 bottom tap, and cleaned/dressed the threads on the rods with a tiny square file after shortening them.
So I still don't feel that I have the ideal technique, but I may have the pedal rod adjustments pretty dialed in on this guitar at this point, so I can avoid the problem for a while. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 4:36 pm
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Put masking tape around the hex of the allen wrench.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 5:08 pm
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| John Groover McDuffie wrote: |
Ok, I used a ball-end allen wrench today and did flare the edges of the socket a little, and had to pound them back down with light taps from a hammer to get the collar to slide over them readily.
I find that it takes a lot of torque to get the rod threaded all the way down into the socket. I have actually shortened the pedal rods about 1/4" during this overhaul, I have chased the threads in the sockets with a 10/32 bottom tap, and cleaned/dressed the threads on the rods with a tiny square file after shortening them.
So I still don't feel that I have the ideal technique, but I may have the pedal rod adjustments pretty dialed in on this guitar at this point, so I can avoid the problem for a while. |
John,
You have identified a very serious flaw in most ball joints, and one poster was exactly right, they SHOULD be made with flat sides for this very reason.
Here is the dilemma if you really want them tight.
1. If you use your fingers, I have never been able to get them tight enough.
2. IF you tighten the nut and allow the connector body to swivel against the extreme of its travel around the ball; to hold it still; the top of the pedal rod; will not be central to its hook point. Which can cause premature wear there.
3. If you use needle nose pliars or vice grips etc, you run the risk of scoring them which affects the esthetics and corrosion may ensue for removing some plating.
Plumbers often RUIN the looks of brand new 200 dollar sink facets for doing the same thing; because they simply do NOT care. It gets them out of the door quicker, because "time is Money". But it is wrong, and they will be punished by Jesus. For it is destroying another's property.
You may find the following to be of some help.
1. Procure a soft pad "Irwin Quick Grip" clamp. They are available at Home Depot and many hardware stores.
2. Clamp the pedal rod to the backside* of the front apron, so that it does not turn. Make sure the hook is in the middle of its swing before you clamp; in what ever hole it goes thru on the crossrod crank.
3. See if you can find a coaxial cable "Ring comressor". These are pliers that have a round hole with no teeth in it; that crimps the metal "O" rings after you have installed a coaxial connector on Cable connectors to your TV Set. All cable company techs use them. I have seen some at Home Depot.
4. These pliars usually have 2 holes in them. And often one of them is perfect to solve exactly the malady you decribe.
If you find one, and the hole in the pliar does not grip the ball joint connector tight enough, wrap the inside of the pliar hole with plumbers tape, UNTIL it grabs the connector tight enough, so you can bear down on the nut.
But BEFORE you do ANY of the above, make sure your pedal height is where you want it, else you are going to have to do it all over. So get that taken care of first.
Good luck dear friend,
c.
* This should do no damage to the backside or pedal rod on most guitars. But to be on the safe side, slide a small piece of wood in between, just in case.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 6:09 pm
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| Chris Lucker wrote: |
| John, instead of a spare ball, use a ball end Allen head driver with the nice yellow handle, or even an Allen wrench that fits. You are not going to snap off or bend an Allen wrench, and I am sure you have a set around. |
+ 1
I've been using an Allen wrench to adjust pedal rod height for years.....good leverage and there's always one handy in my pac-a-seat. |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 6:20 pm tool
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| I use a wire crimping tool. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 6:43 pm
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I have had good luck with holding the connector with narrow needle nose vise grips. Don't clamp so tight that you mar the surface - just tight enough to tighten the nut sufficiently.
Carl's crimping tool sounds like a good idea as well.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Glenn Taylor
From:
Denver, CO, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2010 6:58 pm
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| I use a piece of 1/4" metal rod. Slide the coupler open, put the rod into the hole, let the coupler slide down and hold the rod in place. |
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Brendan Mitchell
From:
Melbourne Australia
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Posted 28 Oct 2010 1:52 am
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| I don't have this problem but has anyone tried a dab of locktite on the thread ? |
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Ronnie Boettcher
From:
Brunswick Ohio, USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2010 11:23 am
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I have never had a issue with the standard nuts, but why dont you try a nylock nut. It is a nut that has a nylon donut, attached to the nut. They are very inexpensive, and all you'd have to do is snug it down on the collar. Even if the collar comes a wee bit loose in the case, when transporting it, just finger snug it to the nut when clipping it onto the pedal, with your fingers. The length will remain the same all the time.
_________________
Sho-Bud LDG, Martin D28, Ome trilogy 5 string banjo, Ibanez 4-string bass, dobro, fiddle, and a tubal cain. Life Member of AFM local 142 |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Oct 2010 12:20 pm
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| John Groover McDuffie wrote: |
Ok, I used a ball-end allen wrench today and did flare the edges of the socket a little, and had to pound them back down with light taps from a hammer to get the collar to slide over them readily.
I find that it takes a lot of torque to get the rod threaded all the way down into the socket. I have actually shortened the pedal rods about 1/4" during this overhaul, I have chased the threads in the sockets with a 10/32 bottom tap, and cleaned/dressed the threads on the rods with a tiny square file after shortening them.
So I still don't feel that I have the ideal technique, but I may have the pedal rod adjustments pretty dialed in on this guitar at this point, so I can avoid the problem for a while. |
You don't want to bottom out the pedalrod all the way into the coupler---that "length of threads" is how you achieve "adjustment". Also, if you are tightening things so hard you are flaring out edges, or breaking off that steel ball ect., you are WAY over tightening things. Just snug so the 10-32 lock nut does not back off is all you need. That's why a spare ball works perfect-- you can hold it in your fingers or a small cresent wrench ect. and LIGHTLY tighten down the lock nut--so you DON'T overkill torquing it down tight, thus damaging your parts.
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2010 1:06 pm
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| Ronnie Boettcher wrote: |
| I have never had a issue with the standard nuts, but why dont you try a nylock nut. It is a nut that has a nylon donut, attached to the nut. They are very inexpensive, and all you'd have to do is snug it down on the collar. Even if the collar comes a wee bit loose in the case, when transporting it, just finger snug it to the nut when clipping it onto the pedal, with your fingers. The length will remain the same all the time. |
With ALL due respect, a lock nut would exacerbate what the author of this thread, is trying to do. For a lock nut is harder to turn than a regular nut; even when it is no where near its intended lock point.
The problem the author is having; is trying to HOLD the ball joint socket, WHILE he tightens the nut.
Several posters' suggestions solves his dilemma. I really like the ball end allen wrench as "holder" idea. I never gave that a thought. It is great, and a tip of my hat to the poster(s) that elightened us on that ditty. 
But thanks for your contribution dear friend,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2010 1:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| You don't want to bottom out the pedalrod all the way into the coupler---that "length of threads" is how you achieve "adjustment". |
James is absolutely correct.
No need to bear down on the nut. However, you do need to consider two 'caveates' when tightening the nut; even if only tightening it lightly:
1. Ya want the hook or other anchor method, (excluding how MSA, etc, does it); to be CENTERED over the center of the socket swing. IE; OFTEN when tightening the nut,; using the ball as a stop for the socket; it will cause the hook on the other end of the pedal rod; to be left at quite an acute angle as it goes into the crossrod "crank". This can cause premature wear of the crank AND the ball AND the socket.
2. Ya don't want the nut to become loose.
Remember the awesome stresses impressed on the A and B Pedal balls and sockets, in JUST one song; let alone playing half the night in a "gig".
For whatever it's worth,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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