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Topic: G# on '50s Fender 400 |
Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 4:32 am |
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Are there issues or problems with using a high G# on an old hog-ringed Fender pedal steel? Specifically a '50s Fender 400.
Brad |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 4:46 am
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Brad,
I had a 1960 "400" in 1960, when E9 was just beginning. If you will make a hook like the original, and put about a 30 deg bend in the middle so that the string will have less of a drop over the bridge. Make the bend so that where the string hooks will kick up and be more in line with the top of the bridge. Worked for me, wish I still had that guitar.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 5:02 am
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Even though Ralph Mooney played E9 on a Fender for years, a lot of players seem to have or have had problems with it. I guess back in the day a lot of players went to D9. You'll find lot's of discussion about it here.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 5:28 am
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| Bill Ford wrote: |
| If you will make a hook like the original, and put about a 30 deg bend in the middle so that the string will have less of a drop over the bridge. Make the bend so that where the string hooks will kick up and be more in line with the top of the bridge. |
Like this:
http://www.steelguitarcanada.com/repairs.htm
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 5:53 am
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Yep...
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Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 6:41 am
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Also, make the ring as long as possible without the string wrap touching the bridge. Any shortening of the string length is a help.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 7:57 am
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Very respectfully:
I bought this guitar in the '50's, but I can't remember what year. Bought it new in Jax, Florida.
Ralph Mooney then added the hi G# to A pull. I had to have it.
NOTHING I tried helped. The late and great Gene O'Neal played it and tried in vain to stop the extraordinary breakage.
I then tried every conceivable thing (including all mentioned so far in this thread) I could, to stop the breakage on that G# string.
Fender then, gave out those blasted "hooks", then they gave out roller bridges and nuts to us desparate 400 and 1000 owners. These did NOTHING to stop the breakage.
The break rarely occurred (on the above guitar) at the ball location. Most of the time it broke at the same place that most other strings break on present day PSG's; and that is, at the top dead center of the bridge location.
Only when we dropped down to D9th, were we able to keep a 1st string on there (remember Buddy had not as yet come up with the so-called "chromatic" strings). Plus these were 8 string guitars.
It was then that I discovered what Shot Jackson and others like Bud Carter (which I learned later) had found out. IE: there is NO answer but to MOVE the bridge, rather than move the string over a fixed bridge.
This is why today, I know of no PSG that pulls the strings over a fixed bridge.
But even when you have a moving bridge, it is still common to have breakage at the TDC of the bridge most of the time strings break.
There are three PSG's I know of today, that have worked on this malady and come up with a cure:
Anapeg built in Australia
Excel built in Japan (with the "superb" type changer)
Williams built in the US (with the elongated bridge).
I know for positive fact that neither the Excel nor the Anapeg, break strings. IF a string breaks before it goes dead, that string WAS defective.
I have little knowledge about the Williams, but I am told it too does not prematurely break strings. I believe that; after perusing and studying its different style changer design.
c.
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A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Russ Blake
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 10:16 am
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Bill and Clyde have the right idea. A longer hog ring/hook with a bend makes a big difference.
Also, try some different string brands. GHS .011's work the best for me.
Lastly, the high G# must go to the first tuner in order to have the shortest string length. This is obvious if you use an E9 without "chromatics", but I've been using a modified E9 with the G# in the 3rd spot and I still have to run that string to the first tuner (which can be done with a straight pull because of the long shafts on the tuner pan). Anyway, it's a little confusing to tune up, but the string doesn't break! |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Oct 2010 3:04 pm
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SIT makes .11's with a shorter string wrap, to reduce breakage. You could use a longer hook without the shorter wrap going over the bridge. The effect would probably be minimal, but it might help.
If all else fails, you could use a .10...
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2010 3:40 pm
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I tried .011's, which broke almost immediately. Then I tried .010's, which broke after a few pulls. Then I tried .009's. They work. I've had the best luck with D'Addarios. If I don't have my amp set just right, that string sounds a little quieter, but to me it's worth the trade-off. The other things that help me are the roller bridges, bent hog ring, and using Mooney tuning, with just one string activated by each pedal. I read an interview where he said he used a .009 banjo string back then.
Those wide-pickup fenders are some of the best-sounding steels ever made, IMHO. Listen to the tones on the Buck Owens Together Again/My Heart Skips a Beat album. (Although, there are three steel players on that album, and at the time Mooney was playing his homemade pedal steel.) |
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Eddie Cunningham
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2010 3:52 pm Solved my Fender hi G# problem !!
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| I used to own a Fender 1000 and constantly broke the G# .011 , .010 & .009 ( the .009s sound real weak) strings even with the "hog rings" . I moved the nut unit 1 1/2 inches closer , put on a shorter fret board and solved the breaking problem and then used .011 strings O.K. !! All the strings sounded much better a little looser also !!! Worked for me !!! Eddie "C" |
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Lauren Ellis
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 5:21 am
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I replaced the metal roller for the G# with a nylon one that I bought at Home Depot. You lose the slightest sustain, on the open note, but I never broke another string! The roller is an exact fit. I think it's a 1/4".
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MSA Super Sustain S-10, Sho Bud Pro-1 and 3 amazing Multi-Kords. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 5:27 am
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Havent broken a string on my 1000 yet. roller bridge and nut, normal hog rings, not bent...have the G# and chromatics on there.
I heard it suggested that on a non roller, one could put some tri flow on the nut and bridge where the string makes contact.
to be fair tho i dont play the 1000 every day. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 6:48 am
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I don't break nearly as many G# strings as in the old days (on any steel I have). Seems the quality of the strings has gotten better.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 5:41 pm
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| Clyde Mattocks wrote: |
| I don't break nearly as many G# strings as in the old days (on any steel I have). Seems the quality of the strings has gotten better. |
So true Clyde.
Here is the problem, really. The gauge of our 3rd string, be it .009--.012, is simply being stretched beyond what good engineering would dictate. But we have NO choice.
When Ralph Mooney put the high G# to A on his steel, it was as dynamic as Bud Isaacs "moving tone" sound with a single pedal AND Buddy Emmons "splitting of that single pedal. For it gave to the world of SG a boost so high, that it is doubtful ANY thing else could ever again be as awesome.
For WHO would EVER be without that E to A change? Even Curley Chalker HAD to give in; in order to "work". He resented it from the get go, but a player has to eat.
Interestily, he was absolutely incredible on E9th, even though he despised every timbre of its "hillybilly" image.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b75msHFynvU
Who would EVER be with out A and B and go back to using a single pedal to get both.
Who would ever be without that "Moon over Miami" sound made famous by the most UN orthodox player who ever graced a PSG?
The tension on the G# to A, is simply an accident waiting to happen.
The ONLY answer without string manufacturers solving the problem is to do what Excel, Anapeg and Williams has done, IE: pull the string in as close to a dead "straight" line as possible.
It is possibly that string manufacturers will discover some alloy that could take many more lbs of tension than is now possible. But don't hold your breath.
But you CAN take this to the bank:
1. There are approx 30,000 PSG steel players (I understand) give or take, in the world.
2. There are literally MILLIONS; Yea 10's of millions; possiblly scores of millions of guitar players.
3. Thus: You can be assured that IF, they were stretching a .011 guage string that breaks like ours does; string manufacturers AND guitar manufacturers WOULD have long since solved the problem.
Because, sadly the world CATERS to the masses.
Just the opposite of how Jesus caters, for He Loves the individual in ALL cases, and does not care a flip about the "group".
Praise His holy name,
c.
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A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 May 2015 2:17 pm
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Due to the long scale on the older Fender cable steels, the G# is mighty hard to keep going. The roller bridge/nut combination helps, but it's still touch-and-go for longevity. Yeah, you can make longer hooks, and that'll help a little, and you can string it up on key #1, but that never was practical for me. Far easier to just drop the thing down to a D tuning. This helps the timbre (adds fullness), and also gives you a lot more pull-off licks in the key of E, where many guitar players spend a lot of time.  |
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