Newbie - Old Sierra double 8 - tuning and manual

Phyllis Erck · From: Montana, USA

I'm just getting started with pedal steel and got an old Sierra double 8. I don't know the model.

A couple of the pedals aren't working on it. Does anyone have any suggestions where I might find a manual?

Also, how should I tune the 2 necks?

I'm excited to start playing steel. I've played dobro for quite a while.

Jimmy Douglas · From: Raceview, Queensland, Australia

Phyllis,

What a great guitar! Lee Jefferies plays a steel like your guitar. You can read about his tuning here

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=190086

David Wright"s website is worth a look.

http://davidwright.us/

Hope this helps you.

Regards,

Jimmy

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Phyllis,
WOW, that ol Sierra looks in great shape, it was built in the early 60's by my Dad..Sorry to sat no Manuals out there.. wish you were closer, I could fix you Wright up, .. What kind of music you looking to play??? D-8 ties you up just a bit on playing todays sounds ..you can do a 8 string E 9th and C6th.. that will put you in the ball park of the "Norm" of today's sounds..

where did you fide this guitar?? it truly is in Great shape for it's age.. Let me know if I can help you in any way , and welcome to the World of Pedal Steel guitar!!!!!
Life is about to make a Big Change!! Whoa!

Phyllis Erck · From: Montana, USA

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Phyllis: You have presented a most interesting challenge. Are you mechanically inclined? If not, you may want to get that steel to some knowledgeable steel player who can help you. Go through the memberlist. There have to be some forum members in Montana.

From the pictures it appears you have nine floor pedals and zero knee levers. Is that correct? Without any knee levers the E9th tuning gets pretty limited, but its still a good tuning and very usable. The C6th tuning is more complete without knee levers, but you will eventually want at least one knee lever. Once you get the steel working you may want to add some knee levers, but you don't have to worry about that now.

From the music you describe being interested in, you will probably want some version of the E9th and C6th tunings. Additionally, the vast majority of steel guitar courses are written for those two tunings.

I would suggest on the E9th neck drop the bottom two strings of the standard E9 tuning. On the C6th neck, I would also drop the bottom two strings of the standard ten string set up. Others may have different suggestions, and I don't mean to suggest that my way is best. Everything is a trade off in one way or another.

Is the steel presently anywhere close to having a recognizable tuning on either neck? If so, what do you think the tuning(s) is/are? Perhaps you could tell us specifically what pitch each string is, from top to bottom, for each neck. (Use a piano or guitar or something as a reference.) Then tell us what each pedal seems to do for each neck, i.e., raises or lowers the second and fourth strings on the front neck a half tone each, etc. Even if you can't tell how much a given string is being raised or lowered (i.e. a half tone versus a whole tone), if you can tell us that pedal # such and such (counting from left to right as you sit at the steel) definitely raises (or lowers) certain strings, that might give us a clue to what the tuning is/was.

Finally, click on the green "links" button at the top of this page. Then click on "Copedents". There you will find many suggestions for different tunes of steel guitars.

This is a noble quest. Be brave. And good luck.

Paul

Phyllis Erck · From: Montana, USA

UH oh? I already fiddled with the tuning on the front so don't know what it was when I got it.

Here's what I've got currently:

http://www.phylliserck.net/copedent/2010-09-13%20copedent.htm

I'd like to put all new strings on.
What string gauges should I use? Or does that depend on the tuning? I know, I've got a lot to learn.

Thanks for your interest and help and patience.

-Phyllis

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Phyllis: Your chart is very helpful. Your back neck is a fairly standard C6th tuning, minus the bottom two strings of the standard 10 string tuning. The first string can be tuned either to a high G, or to a D that is below the pitch of the #2 string. The pedals make virtually no sense, however.

I believe the front neck is a variation of an E9th chromatic tuning. Try tuning the strings as follows;
1-F#
1-D
3-G#
4-E
5-B
6-G#
7-E
8-B

The first string is below the pitch of the third string. The second string is below the pitch of the 4th string. With that tuning the floor pedals do make sense to me. You will have to use your floor pedals in place of knee levers. In some situations you will have to use both feet on the floor pedals to accomplish what can be done using knee levers. Good C6th players use both feet on the pedals a lot. You can learn.

You will have to get reasonable correct string gauges to make these tunings work. It would be helpful to know how long the necks are. Measure from the middle of the nut (by the tuning keys) to the middle of the changer fingers. We need to know how long the vibrating string is. From this we can come up with recommendations for string gauges.

I have to leave for an out of town trip and won't be able to help further til next weekend. Hopefully someone else can take it from here.

Good luck. You're on the right path. Paul

Phyllis Erck · From: Montana, USA

the string length is the same on both necks
24 1/2"

Phyllis Erck · From: Montana, USA

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Door is always open Phyllis Very Happy

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Phyllis, that's a very interesting guitar, but in terms of playing today's music, I suggest that you get yourself something newer like a Stage One or Legend (formerly Carpsteel.)

Sooner or later, you are going to read something in an instruction book that you will want to do that requires a guitar with 10 strings and a knee lever or 2 that is probably not on your guitar.

You have a great collector's item, but in terms of playing, you would be better off with a more modern guitar.
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Jay Yuskaitis · From: Massachusetts, USA

Hi Phyllis, You have one sweetheart of a pedal steel, it was built when I was in my prime and was trying to play every part of every recorded song of the era. I had many comments to make, but just cut them out, as we have 10,000 possible opinions, this is mine. You could spend 2 lifetimes trying to master 6 strings, let alone 10 or 12. Long time ago, the more strings and pedals you had, determined how good a player you were. As can be noted, Pedal Steel Is dying. To much BS. You can live 4 lifetimes, and not get the full potential with your D8 without pedals, let alone one with pedals. Yes, 9 pedals 8 knees can get you more sounds on one or two numbers and that's where you'll be. You have a beautiful guitar that is MORE than capable of playing anything anyone, myself included, would want to hear. You have one hellava Sweatheart, keep it. Jay y.

Phyllis Erck · From: Montana, USA

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

Phyllis

Starting form the beginning with that Grate 8 string - I would suggest you get the Cindy Cashdollar video - the one she teaches 8 string non-pedal C6th -- there is a bunch of Hank stuff on it - San Antone Rose & I think Steel guitar rag --- The reason i say start with this is it will help you understand E9th --- once you learn the C6th you can play it all on E9th with very little relearning -- Cindy will have you playing in just a few days -- then the pedals !! your world will open up --

Hick

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

Jay hit the nail on the head. What a gorgeous instrument (but please lose the Peavey sticker Winking

)! You'd have to be crazy not to play a beautiful guitar like that. Here's a clip of Lee Jeffriess with the West Coast Ramblers playing some cool swing on his Wright:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_XTtjHe_3Q&feature=player_embedded

Phyllis Erck · From: Montana, USA

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

LookS Good Smile

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

That's a very cool old steel.
Likely sound great for old country.
I'd be inclined to put an E9 tuning on the front, like Emmons, Jimmy Day, Ralph Mooney etc, used before the top two strings were added. That is, with the first string being a G#. So, G# E B G# F# E D B top to bottom. I think that was pretty much standard around 1960. Use the first three pedals for the standard E9 changes. Not having any knee levers you'd be using bar slants to get some changes like lowering your E's, but hey, that's how it used to be done.
Jerry

Matthew Dawson · From: Portland Oregon, USA

Beautiful steel! Lots of people here have more experience and probably better advice than me. With that caveat, I would recommend learning this steel as a non-pedal instrument. Get comfortable with bar slants and blocking and some of the basic non-pedal standards, then add in pedals as you recognize a need for them. This is how the first generation of pedal greats developed.

If this were my steel I would put Don Helms' E13 on the front neck and learn Don Helms, Little Roy Wiggins, and Jerry Byrd Material on that neck.

With C6 on the back neck you have tons of non-pedal instruction materials available and you could eventually start using some of the standard C6 pedal changes.

Jerry Byrd's course available from Scotty's is highly recommended and will teach you both C6 and E13 (as well as B11 and others!).

Later, you could re-configure the front neck to have the "Issacs" change and even if you drop the C# from the open tuning you will still have it on the pedals and be able to play all of the Helms/Wiggins older Nashville stuff.

This setup will allow you to get a lot of classic Western Swing and Honky Tonk sounds but to play more modern, 60's and later country you'll probably need a modern guitar.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Jay Yuskaitis · From: Massachusetts, USA

What is a person to do, if'n they are like me, and, don't want to play "what you call modern" crap or even listen to it? The old original "stuff" has been around forever, and like "Classical" and will always be there, play the devil out of that beauty with or without pedals and enjoy just what you play, and, what you play will never grow old, contrary to what "folks" say. Jay Y.

Matthew Dawson · From: Portland Oregon, USA

Not knowing the specifics of the mechanics on this guitar, I defer to Mike P's experience. It would be interesting to hear from Lee Jefferies about whether or not he uses the pedals on his and if so, how he uses them.

Lee Jeffriess · From: Vallejo California

Mathew, yes I do use the pedals on my Sierra.
I totally agree with Jay, there is a world of music on Phyllis's guitar.
To be honest I have barely scratched the surface.
Mike no offense, but your last statement couldn't be further from the truth.
Maybe you should listen to Curly or Mooney on there Fender 1000's or Vance Terry on his Wright/Sierra.
I think its usually the players limitations not the guitars.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I think that's a killer guitar. I'd love to get my hands on one like that. That's a Chuck Wright guitar, right? Congratulations.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

It is true that a lot of great steel guitar music has been made on 8 stringed instruments. It is also true that the overwhelming majority of pedal steel guitarists, probably over 90%, have been playing 10 or 12 string steels with knee levers for over 40 years.

Lee, I am aware of your accomplishments, and I have a lot of respect and admiration for you. I think that you could do wondrous things with that guitar. But even if Phyllis is as talented as you are, she does not have your knowledge or experience.

I stand by my statement that a newbie should have a 10 or 12 string with 3 pedals and 4 or 5 knee levers.

There a several student guitar on the market with the right configuration. The Stage one, the Legend (formerly the Carpsteel,) the Carter Starter, The Simmons. etc. In my opinion, these are all more appropriate for a beginner than this or any older 8 string steel.

(Note: I've never seen a Simmons and cannot say anything about them except that than that other players have said they liked them.)
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Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
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