What is this chord?

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

The intervals are:

6, flat 3, 5 (with the 5 on top):

or a lower inversion,

5, 6, flat 3 (with the flat 3 on top).

I don't know what to call this chord, but it sounds like some sort of passing chord. It seems to work going from the one chord to the four chord. Any ideas?

For the second time, I corrected the sequence of the intervals on the second example (the lower inversion).

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Minor 6th w/o root?

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

Or m7 b5 without the 3rd. By itself it is a b5 chord i.e a triad with a major 3 and diminished 5. It could also be a 9th chord without 5th or root. So if 1 is C and your notes are Eb, G & A, it could reasonably be used as the following:
Cm6 (i in Cm, iv in Gm)
Am7b5 (ii in Gm)
F9 (I in F, IV in C in any contexts where you can play a 7th chord on I or IV; or V in Bb.)
Eb b5 (I in Eb, V in Ab in contexts where you can play seriously jazzy extensions).

A passing use might be in a ii-V-I progression where you lower the 5th on the ii chord eg Am, Am b5 [your chord], D7 G.

I think if you use it as a passing chord from the one to four chord it probably works simply as a decorated parallel movement (I - iiib5 - IV). If you're doing that you can also slide it up a fret before getting to the IV (e.g. one chord on strings 5,6,7 open at fret 8, lower 6 1/2 step at fret 11 -- your chord with the b3 on top -- lower 6 1/2 step at fret 12, open at fret 13 -- the four chord).

Nathan Sarver · From: Washington State, USA

Min7b5 or Dom7b5 without the 3rds perhaps?

Nathan Sarver · From: Washington State, USA

Wow, posted at the exact same time. I shall yield to the gentleman from Ontario.

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

I think it's a (Rootless) B Augmented seventh chord.(Baug7)

But it would normally resolve to an E chord.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

what are the notes?
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Ok Guys: Here's what I am playing, in the key of C for simplicity.

Played on the E9 neck, strings 3, 4, & 5 (or if you want the lower inversion use 4, 5, & 6).

C major 8th fret with no pedals

C minor 6th (?) 11th fret with 5th lowered 1/2

A minor 13th fret with 4th lowered 1/2

C ninth 13th fret with 4th lowered 1/2 & A & B Pedals

F major 13th fret with no pedals

My question is, what is that second chord? So far I like Jim Palenscar's answer the best, but I am no expert on music theory and welcome all input.

The specific notes of the second chord in the sequence would be G, Eb, and A from top to bottom on the higher inversion.

Thanks.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Does the 7th string sound good in that context? If so, it's an F9.
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Yes. The seventh string does fit, in a dissonant sort of way. But then the whole chord is screaming for resolution. That's the whole point.

Now I need to figure a way to work this into a song on the band-stand. Thanks to all for your input.

PS: Jim Robbins; your idea of sliding up a fret before resolving on the 4 chord is producing some interesting things, particularly on fast tempo doodling. Thanks.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

In agreement with b0b, it's a F9 because the A and Eb are a tritone, the defining interval for a dominant chord.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

As Danny Bates said, if the next chord was an E it would be a B7+ (notes B D# G A). That's why your "sliding up a fret" works.

11th fret, 5th string lowered is B7+
12th fret, no pedals is E
13th fret, 4th string lowered is Am.

That's classic circle-of-fifths stuff: B > E > Am.

Note: The + sign means "augmented".
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Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · From: Southaven, MS, USA

I would be glad to analyze it for you if you will supply actual notes with those numbers.

Stuart Legg · Posted 27 Aug 2010 2:36 pm

You could call it about anything you want and be right.
In the key of C no matter what you call it it's still an F9. Besides If you're playing Jazz most chords are substituted with some 9th chord. Winking

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

6, flat 3, 5 (with the 5 on top)
is the same as
3rd, flat 7, 9 (viewed w the 4th as a root note)

at 11th fret what looks/functions as a C minor 6th will also sound/function as F9

One way I end up at that positon going from C to F

string 5 4 3 at 8 th fret

raise E's to F and play strings 5 4 3 at 9th fret, 10th fret and 11th fret

release the E-F lever and lower 5th str for the F9 sound at 11th fret

Once you see that lowering both the 3rd and b7 a halfnote and keeping the 5th (making it minor 6th)takes you from I7 to IV9 you can apply this in several positions.

example at 8th fret play strings 9 6 5 for C7

slide back to fret 7th and halfpress the A pedal for a nice F9
Even tho the notes viewed w the C as reference would be 6th b3rd 5th

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Everyone is right BUT - it illustrates the inherent problem in trying to analyze three apparently disconnected notes. More often than not, we do not play complete chords with a discernable root but, rather a chord "fragment". In attempting to characterize the "fragment" the sky, at times, is the limit.

Here is a site that I've used for quite some time when a "fragment" doesn't seem to "fit".

http://www.gootar.com/piano/

Yes, you have to plug the notes in on a piano keyboard but the chord cluster can be played and the program gives one several alternative "names". If, as illustrated by the members above, one can make an educated guess at a root, given a context, then the program will recalculate what it perceives as the "new" chord.

Just another tool that we can use on occasion.

Respectfully,

Richard

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

No disrespect to any of the previous comments, but in the final analysis, if it sounds appropriate and pleasing in the context played, isn't it acceptable for musical expession?

From an academic standpoint, of course there are parameters, but we can analyze things to infinity and still not understand why "something" is pleasing to the ear in one context, but not in another.

We are not all academics, and sometimes we like something just because it sounds good, not because it is musically correct.
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Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Gene Jones -

Your thoughtful post is essentially on the money.

Were I to find an exception, it would be the case where someone is attempting to pen something to script paper, write a chord chart etc. without fear of some nerdy musicologist getting his sphincter all bound up and asking "Where in hell did he get THAT? The THEORY says that its' WRONG!". Thus, it's an academic exercise which is necessary on occasion.

Agreeing with you once again, I'm mindful of the fact that Bill Evans' "cluster chords" - a handful of color tones - have blown me away for many decades. I have some such "clusters" or "fragments" on both E9 and C6 that a lot of folks would turn their noses up at - a wash of sound with barely a discernable chord reference. So be it. Personal preference prevails.

Respectfully,

Richard

Franklin · Posted 2 Sep 2010 12:10 pm

Knowing how the mathematics of intervals or music theory is applied opens doors. Theory knowledge often helps my ears grow accustomed to the new sounds of different harmonies as substitutions........Knowing that the same triad chord changes names with a different bass note is important knowledge. It allows me to use the same triad over chords we may not immediately think of. When first striking a cluster of notes that obviously sounds the most like a dominant 9th, such as the the b3, 5, and 6th intervals in question here.......why stay content with that one single choice.
.......There's always more ways to apply the chords we know and its good to learn all the options for application..........Paul

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The names of chords are important! When I was writing "Alva's Occidental Melody", I knew that I was playing two different diminished chords on the steel. I wrote the progression and played it with the band and it just didn't sound right. I changed the names of the diminished chords and tried it again the following week. Still, what the band played sounded wrong, especially the bass part.

I went home and analyzed the tune carefully from a music theory perspective. I discovered that the diminished chords were in fact substitutions for a circle-of-fifths progression. They were actually 7b9 chords!

I rewrote the chart with that in mind, and finally the song sounded "right" on stage (and on my CD). You can play by ear and that's fine, but when you're arranging for a band you have to know what the chords are, for real, to make it sound right.
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Duane Reese · Posted 2 Sep 2010 2:23 pm

I worked for a music director around Dallas one time who said that when it came to chord nomenclature, he practically needed a calculator to figure it all out. Not what I would've expected to hear from a professional conductor and pianist (and he wasn't bluffing — we were talking about half-diminished chords one day and he acted genuinely perplexed).

It's all about the intervals.

I think I heard someone say that John Coltrane said he figured he could hit any note, and it would work. I guess that's not my kind of music.

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Are we - once again - sounding the horns for the inclusion of rudimentary theory and harmony into our musical grab-bag? Sounds like it.

Yet - as in another thread on the subject - I would expect the same kind of resistance to the learning of same as previously shown.

Why must that be?

Respectfully,

Richard

Leonard Bick · From: Washington Court House, OH USA

The chord, in that progression, would be a B maj7, to my ears.

Duane Reese · Posted 2 Sep 2010 2:55 pm

[edit]

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

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