| Author |
Topic: Need advice for wider changer finger spacing. |
Greg Gefell
From:
Upstate NY
|
Posted 26 Aug 2010 6:02 am |
|
I'm looking into converting an S-10 into an S-8 pedal steel with wider string spacing.
I plan on removing 2 fingers from the changer and am wondering what would be the best material to build the spacers out of that I'll need in between the remaining fingers to keep them from drifting?
_________________
https://www.facebook.com/ggefell/ |
|
|
 |
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 26 Aug 2010 12:38 pm
|
|
John, lots of uses for oilite.
I understood Greg to mean that these spacers were strictly that, and not a bushing for the finger to run in as well. If so, of course I could agree.
I thought I would use oilite bushings in my next project instead of nylon bushings. In the cross shafts for example.
Ed Fulawka uses them in the finger holes for the changer axle.
I seem to favor oilite instead of nylon on the basis that bronze transfers sound better than plastic. Dunno for sure...just a thought of mine...
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 26 Aug 2010 12:44 pm
|
|
See if this link works;
http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=8kqil9
Well, it gets you there but,, on the page that opens, click on the pic of the sleeve bearing in the upper left side of the top pic of three bearings.
Then, on the next page, click again on the sleeve bearing on the top left, the dark gray one. Then you on the page with all the specs of what's available from McMaster Carr.
And I am thinking of his using them between the fingers as spacers Bent. |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 26 Aug 2010 1:32 pm
|
|
John, yes I understand what you mean. Certainly he could use them strictly as spacers, but it would really not be of any advantage to use a lubed spacer. It is meant for use as a bushing for a shaft to run in and be lubed forever and also take the wear.
To have as a spacer would be a waste, plus the fact that it looks odd with the two different colors(aluminum and bronze)
http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=8kt90q
Here is the bushing that I would use for cross shafts.
Just like the nylon ones.
Terrible prices though...
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
Storm Rosson
From:
Silver City, NM. USA
|
Posted 26 Aug 2010 1:40 pm
|
|
 I think u can get hardened steel spacer/washers in successive thicknesses (guage)at Mcfart in the Carr too, they should work. |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 26 Aug 2010 1:43 pm
|
|
I don't know Bent. I thought the permanently lubed factor might be helpful on the bearing surfaces between the fingers and the spacers??? We used bronze shim washer where I worked. Plus,,, For eight strings, instead of ten, you'd probably need nine spacers
It would help to know a few more details.
a) Like how wide are the fingers?
b) Are there any shim washers now?
c) What is the string spacing desired for the eight strings?
d) Are the eight strings going to be as wide as the ten strings?
Those bushings/spacers might not actually be very wide at all! |
|
|
|
Greg Gefell
From:
Upstate NY
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 5:29 am
|
|
I don't have any exact measurements yet - still mulling this over in my head. I would definitely want the 8 strings to occupy the space of ten though. The whole reason I'm considering this change is to gain extra string spacing.
Is there enough motion between fingers to need something lubricated? If so perhaps a material such as Delrin could be used. From what I know of it, it has inherently "slippery" properties by nature. If I can get my hands on a small piece of round stock, I could easily make custom washers/spacers with the lathe.
_________________
https://www.facebook.com/ggefell/ |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 5:34 am
|
|
Greg,
Didn't realize you had a lathe. Delrin is a good possible choice. Bent and I have discussed this before. What is the inside dimension of the changer? How wide is a changer finger? How wide are 8 changer fingers? How wide are all ten?
You may be able to get Delrin washers, and not even have to bother making them yourself. Where I used to work, we used bronze shim washers between the fingers. Devilishly expensive though! |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 9:04 am
|
|
Greg, like John says, Delrin is a good choice for extreme wear resistance anyway. Nylon and I suppose any plastic product of the same hardness have a natural lube factor it seems.I have always wonders though, what are the sonic qualities like?
I may be erring on the side of caution here but I have decided that any plastic component in a steel guitar has a detrimental effect on sound transference. When I built my 2 steels last year, I used nylon bushings with a collar for the finger/axle connection. The collar provided the spacing needed between the 3/16" fingers. Then I decided to use a 1/2" axle instead of the 3/8" and mount the fingers directly on the axle. So- out with the nylon and in with the metal-to-metal contact. I am sure this change produced a brighter tone and (maybe just my imagination) more sustain.
I also made the same components for my friend's steel in England, and Dave Seddon thought
he heard a difference.
I ran this nylon vs metal idea past Master builder Martin Weenick. He said: Never use plastic in the changer.
John, did we discuss this specific question earlier? If so, I must be in first stage Altzheimers!
I agree though, the bronze is awfully expensive! However, since you have a lathe, Greg, you could make some bronze or brass spacers quite easily yourself. Do you have a mill as well?
Interesting stuff this here
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 9:24 am
|
|
"Then I decided to use a 1/2" axle instead of the 3/8" and mount the fingers directly on the axle. "
Bent, that was a wise decision! Plastic between the fingers and the axle would definitely have a deleterious effect. James Morehead and I once talked about axle diameter in regards to our old Shobuds. He was thinkin' that the larger axle, 5/8", contributed to the excellent sound of these old Sixties guitars. I agreed. The larger axle meant less aluminum in the fingers, due to the larger hole, but a larger contact area between the fingers and the axle. Be a pain in the neck to test and prove it though! |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 10:33 am
|
|
Right, John. I also believe that the thicker the axle, the less chance of cabinet drop.
What is your feeling on oilite bushings instead of nylon for the cross shafts?
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 10:50 am
|
|
| That's a tough question Bent. Just about everyone who uses bushings there, uses nylon. I wouldn't think there'd be any effect on sound. At least none that a human could hear. But,,, I could be wrong about that. Perhaps after some wear sets in, nylon might be quieter. Man! I just don't know! As a builder, it wouldn't be too difficult for you to try and test it. Specially if you can get identical busing sleeves of both Oilite and Nylon, or some other plastic like Delrin. The shafts don't rotate by very many degrees. Hmmmm,,, Tough question! I'll keep thinkin' on it,,, |
|
|
|
Greg Gefell
From:
Upstate NY
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 10:51 am
|
|
I'm pretty sure we have some brass stock out in the shop! That would work for me.
...and yes Bent - we have a mill also.
I enjoy making small custom parts like these. Its very satisfying to make a useful finished product out of some dusty old stock you have lying around.
_________________
https://www.facebook.com/ggefell/ |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 11:00 am
|
|
"any plastic component in a steel guitar has a detrimental effect on sound transference."
Bent, you're probably right! Although some hard, dense plastic type products might not be sound dampening. What does Ovation use? Polycarbonate?
Then again, one might not find it desirable to transfer much sound to the mechanicals. All that stuff has to be a little loose to work. Has to be some tolerances to prevent binding. Just want the tolerances to be as small as possible. Ya don't wanna end up with a rattler like my Fingertip! Ya got me thinkin' again. |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 11:01 am
|
|
Greg, well, you're all set then! You can even make yourself a nice matching set of brass fingers to match the brass stock for the spacers..that would look cool! If you wanna go one step further, you could have the brass fingers and spacers chromed. That way there is no string wear no nothing, and likely a sweet sound from all that brass. I can't wait to get my mill going..still waiting on the electrics 
John re the nylon vs oilite in the cross shafts. It's likely all in my head anyway, some newly acquired hangup I have about plastic and sound transference. But...every little bit helps said the mouse when she peed in the ocean...
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 11:09 am
|
|
| John Billings wrote: |
| Ya don't wanna end up with a rattler like my Fingertip! Ya got me thinkin' again. |
Well, it was one of those rattling Fingertips that Charley Pride live at Panther Hall was recorded with.
And the sound that Lloyd got on this LIVE album still brings tears to my eyes.
On this sound transference thing...we are all so hooked on this vibration thing..from the strings down thru the body and back up to the pickup. Well, if this thing has any merit at all, then every little component has to work together to help transfer these good vibrations throughout. A plastic bushing might hamper this transfer a wee bit.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 11:18 am
|
|
"A plastic bushing might hamper this transfer a wee bit."
Yes Bent. But that might not be undesirable. Setting all those different mechanical parts into some sort of resonance, when they all have vastly different resonant frequencies, might just cancel some stuff out that you wanna hear.
What do you think? |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 11:21 am
|
|
| Then again, where I worked, 1/4"steel pins were in the ends of the cross shafts, and no bushings/bearings at all. Just inserted into holes in the aluminum side rails. And those guitars sounded terrific! |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 2:41 pm
|
|
That's interesting John...steel pins in the ends of the alum shaft. Someone just aired that idea , on the Builders' Forum I believe. How were these steel pins mounted? Was a hole drilled and tapped and then the pin was threaded in there?
If no bushing with collar, was there any way to replace the cross shafts without taking the whole undercarriage apart?
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Aug 2010 3:17 pm
|
|
Bent,
Email sent. |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 28 Aug 2010 4:24 pm
|
|
What about converting a 12-string to a 10-string ? Then you don't lose two strings. You could also use the pickup off a 10-string non-pedal.
Or you could start off with a 10-string non-pedal and add the mechanism from a pedal steel.
I can see why you want wider spacing. I've always thought regular PSG string spacing was too close. When asked why he set the strings so close, Buddy Emmons said that he thought people would want the same width of fingerboard for a 10 string as an 8 string.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=29596&highlight=
Check out the above thread. |
|
|
|
Greg Gefell
From:
Upstate NY
|
Posted 30 Aug 2010 5:28 am
|
|
That would be a good idea Alan... if I had a 12 string. 
I gotta work with what I have.
I have 2 S-10 guitars so I can always use one for standard pedal steel and experiment away on the second. Nothing I'm doing would be non-reversible if I decide its not for me in the long run.
_________________
https://www.facebook.com/ggefell/ |
|
|
|
