The Pocketless Drummer

Mitch Adelman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

As hard as I try to ignore it, I am dealing with a drummer that just plays on the downbeat, no groove or "pocket" even on the simplest country song.On the fast stuff its like pulling a wagon up a hill. I have come to the conclusion that having a drummer like this is not only frustrating but no matter how good the players in the band are, a drummer with this lack of feel makes any band a lousy band. When playing guitar I have to overplay and make sure I play that rhythmic spot he is always late for. Then they say I'm too loud!People have trouble dancing. I mean you don't tap your foot right on the beat. Can you teach an old dog this most basic concept called feel? When playing steel I just go into my own zone and tune him out.He keeps a steady beat tempo wise but its right on the downbeat with no "groove".Its like upside down rhythmically. In other words, I found the drummer is the make it or break it player in any band. Great singers and players don't seem to help much and can't overcome this. A good bassist helps a little. Is there really any good way to compensate for a "pocketless drummer" or should I just move on? Can't fire him since his dad is the leader! Any one else have to deal with this?

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Can you post a clip that shows the problem with the drummer you describe?

Paul Crawford · From: Orlando, Fl

I've tried in vain for years to teach less experienced players the more nuianced side of country music. I'm not sure I ever really made a difference.

I had a recent project with a set of GREAT jazz and classical musicians trying to do country. It fell apart under its own weight in frustration. They could easily play the notes, but never really got a feel for the music. They all knew something was missing but could never put the dynamics and musical exchange into practice. It just came out flat, strained and dead.

On the other hand, one of the other bands I work with is a bunch older weekend warriors just having fun. Although technically they aren't near the realm of the well schooled pros, they all have the feel and know more than enough to play their version of any country song. They are one of the most sought after bands in town and their zeal for the music always results in a good, enjoyable performance.

IMHO, no matter how enthusiastic the player, there is no substitution for love the music and experience in playing it. I guess that's why you have to work so long to become an overnight success.

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

Been there, go there all the time. Players that have a good reputation amongst the general local population that just don't get it. Nuance is just a foreign concept to some and if you persist in trying to teach it, you just come off as too picky.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

Based on my experience I'd say an adult drummer (I realize this is something of an oxymoron. OK, no moron pun intended either) either understands how to lay into a groove or they don't, regardless of the type of music being played. The other important factor, and this applies to all instruments, is respecting the idiom and bringing the appropriate mind-set and chops to the gig. It's not always the case, but there are many versatile players working country gigs who can turn right around and swing with a big band, play rock, jazz, or whatever on the next gig.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

move on
you get it
he doesn't

I have played gigs with a drummer who is held in high regard in the area -- one of the better (if not BEST) country drummers, according to some.

HE CAN'T SWING -- to save his life. Med/fast western swing (think San Antonio rose at a moderate tempo) sounds like a bluegrass beat -- straight eighths instead of swing.

If it bothers your playing and your ability to enjoy playing gigs with him -- GET OUT.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

John Roche · From: England

Funny enough I have the same problem with a drummer at our jam session, I play off the night with San Antonio rose, it's like running in treacle. You would think it was his drum solo, bank wallop splashing the cymbals and all out of time. but what can you do apart from no going to the jam.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

I also have a helpful drummer theory, ha ha. Usually, the more gear a drummer brings (double bass drums, multiple toms, cymbals,etc. etc. indicates he doesn't get out much, and it's going to be a long night of him trying to play all that stuff. The converse is usually true as well. A guy who works a lot will bring only as much gear as he has to, and groove all night on it.

Scott Appleton · From: Ashland, Oregon

The old joke is " Drummers ain't Musicians" they just hit things with sticks .. may be true for some but as the thread indicates not all Drummers have the feel in one style or another .. When you find a musician who knows the types of pockets and styles that make the music sing its a joy .. could be a drummer could be a bass player etc .. you got to have that feel be it swing, classic Honky Tonk, Memphis, rockabilly etc .. Each style has its accents and timing differences that make it " Feel the way it does" otherwise we would not have all this different music that surrounds us. Loose the bad drummer somehow .. you will be amazed at how good it gets when the whole band is in the " Groove "

Billy Tonnesen · From: R.I.P., Buena Park, California

Face it, he is not a Drummer. He is a Guy playing
with Drums. Move on, if you do not have a tight
rhythm section it can take the incentive out of one's playing.
Been there, had it happen !

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

At least you can tell when the stage is level!

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

If you don't have good bass and drums NOTHING you put on top will matter. Both or either can literally destroy a band musically.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

To me, a band is never any better than the rhythm section. A rhythm section with no pulse just drags everyone else down. I'd rather play with no drummer than a drummer with no pulse. But a good drummer just makes the gig for me - other things can be out of whack, but a good drummer somehow just holds it together.

Sometimes a good bass player or a really good rhythm guitarist can help get a marginal drummer get in line. If it's a drummer without a lot of experience, sometimes they have enough humility to lighten up and listen, try hard, and improve. But if a drummer has decades of playing experience and is still clueless, you're in hell with no refrigerator.

Mitch Adelman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

I think I will take some advice here and move on. Despite the convenience of working for this band, I may be getting involved with a trio without a drummer.Less money and gigs but its amazing how free I felt without an off the pocket drummer taking control (the wrong way)of every tune.There's no way out once the tune starts. The band is really held hostage to a pocketless drummer. Then again as stated there is nothing better for one's playing that a great drummer. They have been few and far between for me. Unfortunately I'd rather not have one if they don't feel the music!It's a tough trade off.

Mike Schwartzman · From: Maryland, USA

Robert Harper · From: Alabama, USA

Do you guy ever play a song as you feel it? Do you let the way it is recorded set the pace, What muscial license do you take. Do singes deviate with their mood or the way they feel and cause you to deviate from the way it was recorded or do you maybe deviate from session to session
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"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

If you have a competent drummer, tempo should be no issue. It is the realm of the drummer and a good one counts off each song at the proper tempo. Whether that tempo is identical to some recorded version is less important to me than the appropriate feel for the band itself, the crowd, and the song. And, yes, it can vary but only within limits. Once again, the drummer should be the last word in tempos. If he is incapable of remembering which songs are how fast or of keeping steady meter he is not earning his money. It would be like you not being able to find an Am chord.

A good drummer is a joy to behold. About one out of five or even one out of ten is REALLY good.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Michael Robertson · From: Ventura, California. USA

If is not against Forum policy I’d like to put a good word out for the best country drummer I have ever had the pleasure to work with.
I refer to him as a metronome with a soul.
In addition he is a good singer.
Clean cut and is one of the good guys.
His name is Andy and his cell phone number is 805-231-7040.
Like so many of us Andy is between gigs right now.
Andy is in the Los Angeles area.
Give him a call perhaps you can work together.
805-231-7040
If this belongs under a different topic I will gladly move it.

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

Now don't think any less of me, Embarassed

but I've been drumming in pop and rock bands for years. It took a long time to realize that a solid groove with kick and snare and right hand 8ths played in the right "spots" relative to the bass player (and relative to each limb!) is WAY more valuable than being able to do flashy and noisey fills.

My drumming mission statement: Make the band sound good. Almost without exception this means following the old saying "less is more".

Regarding working with other players who are not able to get it, I say life is too short, move on!

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

In the dream band I hear in my head, there's no cymbals. Somewhere I've heard the phrase "the tyranny of the drum kit" and it's absolutely true - a "drummer" as we know it in the western world/bar band/American music sees every single rhythm as a combination of bass drum, snare, tom and cymbal. There becomes no other way to play... anything, with one of those guys taking charge. And they see it as their job to do so.

Cal Sharp · From: the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

David,

I'll grant you that cymbals and toms can
be "tyrannical" and are often overused, but the right hand breaking the downbeat into smaller divisions of 8ths or triplets or dotted 8ths/sixteenths is I believe a prerequisite to a groove/beat/rhythm the feels good with the band. The physical mechanics of the muscles in the limbs working together in the body's "rhythm" is what makes it work and "groove", IMO.

I will also grant you that we drummers are guilty of not thinking outside the box when it comes to playing the type of music you mention, and yeah, we're gonna figure out how to include everything we got in front of us. I'm not hauling a 4 foot chinese gong to the gig and only using it once! Laughing

(I've never used a 4 foot chinese gong).

All that said it's your perfect dream band in your head so enjoy!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Brian,
I'd like to play in a band with you playing drums. Your take on it is exactly right (IMHO). The subtleties of groove and feel are what separate the players from the hacks. There are waaaaay too many hack drummers who THINK they are great -- just ask 'em. Smile

If you can't play the proper volume and pick up on (or CREATE) the nuances the music and players dictate you're not going to make it with really skillful players.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

The drummer from my old band is a close friend,,, but,,, there were times I wanted to drop my guitar, walk back to his kit, and STRANGLE him! He and the bass player would get together and play the "Let's see how fast we can get JB to play Elmira St. Boogie" game. It's a fairly hard tune to play, specially if you're a fingerpicker, but I played it faster than the record. I'd tell them, "I'm going to play this as fast as I'm able, so don't rush it!" They'd play 2 or three verses, and then grin at each other and start rushing. After the tune fell apart on a few occasions, I refused to play it anymore. Bummed me out cuz it was a crowd pleaser, and my one chance to really "show my chops."
He's still my buddy though!

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