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Topic: A former math majors analysis of Don Helms' 8 string tunings |
Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 14 Aug 2010 10:03 am |
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I used to stay up all night drawing up charts like this for regular guitar 40 years ago. This one deals strictly with the block chords on Don Helm's double 8 Console Grande (I need to make up another one showing the intervals on non-adjacent strings). If you notice any mistakes please post them so that I can edit my file. There can be a lot of different ways to name these chords...
DON HELMS' E6th NECK
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Notes: A C# E G# B C# E G#
Intervals (key of E): 4th-6th-root-3rd-5th-6th-root-3rd
Intervals (note-to-note): M3 m3 M3 m3 M2 m3 M3
Some of the block chords in open position:
(8-7-6)M3-m3 = Major triad on the 4th (A)
(8-7-6-5)M3-m3-M3 = Major 7th on the 4th (A)
(8-7-6-5-4)M3-m3-M3-m3 = Major 9th on the 4th (A)
(8-7-6-5-4-3)M3-m3-M3-m3-M2 = Major 9th on the 4th (A)
(8-7-6-5-4-3-2)M3-m3-M3-m3-M2-m3 = Major 9th on the 4th (A)
(8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1)M3-m3-M3-m3-M2-m3-M3 = Major 9th on the 4th (A)
(8-7-6)M3-m3 = sus 4/add 6 on the root (E)
(8-7-6-5)M3-m3-M3 = Major 6/11(no 5th) on the root (E)
(8-7-6-5-4)M3-m3-M3-m3 = Major 6/11 on the root (E)
(8-7-6-5-4-3)M3-m3-M3-m3-M2 = Major 6/11 on the root (E)
(8-7-6-5-4-3-2)M3-m3-M3-m3-M2-m3 = Major 6/11 on the root (E)
(8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1)M3-m3-M3-m3-M2-m3-M3 = Major 6/11 on the root (E)
(7-6-5)m3-M3 = minor triad on the 6th (C#)
(7-6-5-4)m3-M3-m3 = minor 7th on the 6th (C#)
(7-6-5-4-3)m3-M3-m3-M2 = minor 7th on the 6th (C#)
(7-6-5-4-3-2)m3-M3-m3-M2-m3 = minor 7th on the 6th (C#)
(7-6-5-4-3-2-1)m3-M3-m3-M2-m3-M3 = minor 7th on the 6th (C#)
(6-5-4)M3-m3 = Major triad on the root (E)
(6-5-4-3)M3-m3-M2 = Major 6th on the root (E)
(6-5-4-3-2)M3-m3-M2-m3 = Major 6th on the root (E)
(6-5-4-3-2-1)M3-m3-M2-m3-M3 = Major 6th on the root (E)
(5-4-3)m3-M2 = 7th(no root) on the 6th (C#)
(5-4-3-2)m3-M2-m3 = minor 7th on the 6th (C#)
(5-4-3-2-1)m3-M2-m3-M3 = minor 7th on the 6th (C#)
(4-3-2)M2-m3 = minor 7th(no 5th) on the 6th (C#)
(4-3-2-1)M2-m3-M3 = minor 7th on the 6th (C#)
(3-2-1)m3-M3 = minor triad on the 6th (C#) |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
DON HELMS' B11th NECK
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Notes: F# A B D# F# A C# E
Intervals (key of B) 5th-b7th-root-3rd-5th-b7th-9th-11th
Intervals (note-to-note): m3 M2 M3 m3 m3 M3 m3
Some of the block chords in open position:
(8-7-6-5)m3-M2-M3 = dominant 7th on the root (B)
(8-7-6-5-4)m3-M2-M3-m3 = dominant 7th on the root(B)
(8-7-6-5-4-3)m3-M2-M3-m3-m3 = dominant 7th on the root (B)
(8-7-6-5-4-3-2)m3-M2-M3-m3-m3-M3 = dominant 9th on the root (B)
(8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1)m3-M2-M3-m3-m3-M3-m3 = dom 11th on the root (B)
(7-6-5-4)M2-M3-m3 = dominant 7th on the root (B)
(7-6-5-4-3)M2-M3-m3-m3 = dominant 7th on the root (B)
(7-6-5-4-3-2)M2-M3-m3-m3-M3 = dominant 9th on the root (B)
(7-6-5-4-3-2-1)M2-M3-m3-m3-M3-m3 = dominant 9th on the root (B)
(6-5-4)M3-m3 = Major triad on the root (B)
(6-5-4-3)M3-m3-m3 = dominant 7th on the root (B)
(6-5-4-3-2)M3-m3-m3-M3 = dominant 9th on the root (B)
(6-5-4-3-2-1)M3-m3-m3-M3-m3 = dominant 11th on the root(B)
(5-4-3)m3-m3 = diminished triad on the 3rd (D#)
(5-4-3-2)m3-m3-M3 = half-diminished 7th on the 3rd (D#)
(5-4-3-2-1)m3-m3-M3-m3 = half-diminished 7/b9th on the 3rd (D#)
(4-3-2)m3-M3 = minor triad on the 5th (F#)
(4-3-2-1)m3-M3-m3 = minor 7th on the 5th (F#)
(3-2-1)M3-m3 = Major triad on the b7th (A) |
respectfully submitted by Steve Ahola
P.S. If you need a translation of this please ask!
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Stan Schober
From:
Cahokia, Illinois, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2010 8:46 pm
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THANK YOU !
_________________
Emmons S-8 P/P,DeArmond 40. Slowly drifting back towards sanity. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2010 9:23 pm
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I think that two things are worth noting here.
- Don Helms rarely played a major 2 interval. In other words, he deliberately avoided playing the B and C# strings together.
- Almost every song Don played consisted of 3 or 4 major chords. He often substituted the relative minor or dominant ninth for those major chords. Those substitutions are the essence of his style.
_________________
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 14 Aug 2010 9:44 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
I think that two things are worth noting here.
- Don Helms rarely played a major 2 interval. In other words, he deliberately avoided playing the B and C# strings together.
- Almost every song Don played consisted of 3 or 4 major chords. He often substituted the relative minor or dominant ninth for those major chords. Those substitutions are the essence of his style.
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Thanks for all of that information! Yes it is the chord substitutions that make his playing so dynamic, something I am learning one chord at a time. We all know that C# minor is the relative minor of E Major, but what dominant ninth chord are you referring to- the E9th on the root or B9th on the V or something else altogether?
I do have a few books on substituting chords in jazz- I ought to dig them up!
Steve
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2010 8:21 am
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The top 3 strings of the E13th are notes 5 b7 9 of an F#9 chord. Don Helms would often, for example, substitute Am for C at the 8th fret, then go up to the 11th fret to substitute F9 for the F chord.
Substituting a 9th chord on the I7 or V7 is very common practice, but a big part of the bluesy Hank Williams sound was Don Helms' use of the IV9 against the IV major chord. (Jerry Byrd did it too, of course.)
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Mike Harris
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2010 2:53 pm
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| Is it true that he didn't use strings 7 and 8 very much? I'm making my way transcribing through the Hank Williams singles (chronologically) and pretty soon I'll be through the Jerry Byrd phase and into the Don Helms period. It would make my life easier if I could just string up my "travel" 6 in an E6 tuning rather than doing a wholesale restringing of my 8 stringer. |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 15 Aug 2010 3:26 pm
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| Mike Harris wrote: |
| Is it true that he didn't use strings 7 and 8 very much? It would make my life easier if I could just string up my "travel" 6 in an E6 tuning rather than doing a wholesale restringing of my 8 stringer. |
Mike:
That is what I've heard. I'm certainly no expert but I have been working on my favorite Hank Williams songs with my 1948 Gibson Century (I call it my "Console Poquito" LOL). It is currently tuned to C6 and so far there is only one song I had to dig out my 8 stringer for: the riff on Honky Tonkin'. I was able to get those low notes jumping down to lower frets on the higher strings but it was so much easier playing it on an 8 string. Other than that 6 strings has worked out just fine. Very soon I will be restringing my Century to "E6"- C6 moved up 4 frets.
So your 6 string travel steel should work just fine for 99% of his E6th work. It will be interesting to learn exactly where he used his B11th neck.
Steve
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Mike Harris
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2010 5:16 pm
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Steve,
I've read elsewhere on the forum that he used the E neck for solos and the B neck for fills on the verses, etc.
There are (at least) two different versions of Honky Tonkin-one released as a single in May 1947 and the other a single in April of 1948. They were on different labels and apparently neither features Don Helms. I'm not sure about it, but from info I was given on yet another SGF thread the steel on the '48 M-G-M release features Jerry Byrd. I'm going to see if anybody here knows who did the first one (and a few others that were neither DH nor JB). The steel on either one is top-drawer in my estimation. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2010 5:16 pm
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In his Your Cheatin' Heart Songbook, Don Helms didn't use the two low strings at all. In person, I've seen him use them when comping backup. Oddly, he used a forward slant on the low strings sometimes. I've never seen him slant the bar during a solo, though. He knew where all of the harmonies were without slants, and would sometimes jump over quite a few frets to get straight harmonies instead of using a nearby slant.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 16 Aug 2010 2:40 pm
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| Mike Harris wrote: |
| There are (at least) two different versions of Honky Tonkin-one released as a single in May 1947 and the other a single in April of 1948. They were on different labels and apparently neither features Don Helms. |
You are right- that isn't Don Helms. I guess it is Jerry Byrd when you hear that deep vibrato, and maybe the "wah wah" effect of spinning the tone control.
Wow! I just now found a Hank Williams discography that lists personnel for most of his recordings:
http://www.hankwilliamsdiscography.com/
It looks like Don Helms was on most of the MGM recordings starting in January 1950 although he was touring with the Hank Williams and the Drifting Cowboys in 1947 according to the bio I found (he had played with Hank in 1944 but left to go in the army).
So does anybody know what tunings that Jerry Byrd was using on the Hank Williams recordings? 6, 7 or 8 strings? I never realized what a great blues player he was!
"Wedding Bells" was the first single listed with Don on steel- his backing has that "high lonesome" sound that is distinctly Don.
The Don Helms book includes some songs that he did not record with Hank, but with the touring you know he played them a *lot* more times than Jerry Byrd, who was just doing the recording sessions. And he appears to be on all of the recordings from the Mother's Best radio shows.
Thanks for bringing this up!
Steve Ahola
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Mike Harris
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2010 2:56 pm
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Thanks for that link, you've filled in most or all of the gaps I had questions about.
All I know is what I read right here on the SGF.
That said, the Jerry Byrd/Hank Williams tracks that I've done so far seem to be in (or work in, at least) a high C6. I could be all wet about that. |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 16 Aug 2010 3:34 pm
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| Mike Harris wrote: |
Thanks for that link, you've filled in most or all of the gaps I had questions about.
All I know is what I read right here on the SGF.
That said, the Jerry Byrd/Hank Williams tracks that I've done so far seem to be in (or work in, at least) a high C6. I could be all wet about that. |
If they work for you, that is good enough for me! So will you be publishing your transcriptions? Inquiring minds want to know!
Steve
P.S. All of the "complete" discographies I found for Don listed only the tracks on the two LP's he put out in 1962. Big whoop!
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Mike Harris
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2010 5:31 pm
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Steve,
they are sketchy and messy--there's no rhythmic notation, just the pitches. But I'd be happy to share anything you might be interested in seeing. Besides the possibility of being 12 frets off and several strings off here and there, some of the songs are originally in low C6 or even some more remote tuning (I'm working on one right now that seems to have a flat 7 on the lowest string).
At some point I'll send you a list of the tunes I've done and you can tell me which ones you want to check out. Some of these are tunes I wasn't familiar with (I grew up with the MGM "Greatest Hits" or some such compilation). |
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