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Topic: Other than comfort, why should bar weight matter? |
Mark Lavelle
From:
San Mateo, CA
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Posted 11 Aug 2010 6:23 pm |
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I may be off my rocker, but I've gotten the impression that some people think that bar weight affects tone and/or sustain. Is there anything to that?
-- Mark
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http://www.harmonicappliances.com/ |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2010 6:27 pm
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| Someone recently said that it's bigger size, not more weight, that makes for a better tone. I'm waiting to find out the facts on that one... I know my bigger/heavier 3x7/8 Dunlop is way more toneful than my JB Dunlop. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Aug 2010 6:47 pm
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My vote is definately for the extra weight of a solid bar. I have a 3/4” x 2 7/8” (Hawaiian Bar), but; I also have a Custom-Made 7/8” x 2 7/8” (solid-stainless). The solid-stainless has it all over the 3/4” tone-bar! The extra weight requires less pressure on the strings and therefore allows for better control of the bar for adding an even tremolo, w/o string-rattle. It just plays so much smoother for me and helps my tone greatly!
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My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Papa Joe Pollick
From:
Swanton, Ohio
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Posted 11 Aug 2010 7:07 pm
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| I don't allow things like that to crowd my mind but I do know that my bigger heavier bars have got me hooked...It's got to the point that unless I'm tryin' to do hammer ons and pull offs on my Dobro I'll use a big heavy bar..dunno.. |
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Mark Lavelle
From:
San Mateo, CA
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Posted 11 Aug 2010 7:57 pm
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IMHO, all the previous comments fall in the comfort/personal preference space, which is certainly a consideration, but not really what I was talking about.
At the moment I'm really interested in the physics of bars on strings. In which case the weight of a bar shouldn't matter at all (it's a linear relationship with pressure), but the mass might - if I could think of a physical reason for a difference in (or relationship to) string vibration...
I also suspect that the radius of the bar could have an effect on at least your sustain: smaller radius = more sustain, assuming equivalent pressure (weight per area).
Whaddya think?
-- Mark
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http://www.harmonicappliances.com/ |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Aug 2010 8:36 pm
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I think just the opposite! But, I don't know how to prove it on paper! (or in cyber-space!)
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My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 12 Aug 2010 3:54 am
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If you are using heavier strings, the heavier bar is the best way to get good tone (particularly if you are playing an 8 string with a wide octave range, like A6, C6 or E9). This is also true on a longer scale length guitar where there is more tension. Otherwise, with a light bar you have to exert too much pressure for a solid tone. If you don't, there's a risk of it being buzzy. I think a heavier bar will give you a more even tone across the strings. As a perfect example, I had a Chase bar that was rather light and was, frankly, unuseable for me because of the tone. A similar bar filled with lead was much better.
On the other hand, if you are using lighter strings, like an unwound .022 for a G, the lighter bar (like a JB model) might serve your purpose better. A heavy bar will push the strings down a bit too much with just a little pressure and can hurt your intonation.
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Chris Drew
From:
Bristol, UK
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Posted 12 Aug 2010 4:23 am
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Here's my take on it...
Tone is a subjective thing, but sustain is measurable as a decay of string vibration over time.
Simple physics dictates that the more mass a bar has, the longer the sustain, this is a fact that can be measured.
String vibration is more easily passed on to a bar with less mass, a bar with more mass has greater inertia & therefore more vibrational energy stays in the string rather than being dumped into the player's hand.
Basically the weightier the bar is, the more it behaves like a fixed fret.
The lighter the bar is, the more it acts as a device to pass string vibration on to the player's hand which acts as a damper, decreasing sustain.
Additional factors include the variables of bar pressure & bar material hardness.
Regarding "tone"...
A string vibrates with a fundamental frequency, and a range of overtones/harmonics.
"Tone" can be thought of as the strength/weakness of these other frequencies which accompany the fundamental & how that affects the guitar pickup/amp/body etc.
Different bars/strings/guitars/players will mean than different frequencies may be stronger or weaker than others.
For example, a certain bar material/size/weight may absorb certain frequencies of the string vibration more than others, affecting what we'd percieve as the "tone".
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2010 6:22 am
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| Chris Drew wrote: |
Here's my take on it...
Tone is a subjective thing, but sustain is measurable as a decay of string vibration over time.
Simple physics dictates that the more mass a bar has, the longer the sustain, this is a fact that can be measured.
String vibration is more easily passed on to a bar with less mass, a bar with more mass has greater inertia & therefore more vibrational energy stays in the string rather than being dumped into the player's hand.
Basically the weightier the bar is, the more it behaves like a fixed fret.
The lighter the bar is, the more it acts as a device to pass string vibration on to the player's hand which acts as a damper, decreasing sustain.
Additional factors include the variables of bar pressure & bar material hardness.
Regarding "tone"...
A string vibrates with a fundamental frequency, and a range of overtones/harmonics.
"Tone" can be thought of as the strength/weakness of these other frequencies which accompany the fundamental & how that affects the guitar pickup/amp/body etc.
Different bars/strings/guitars/players will mean than different frequencies may be stronger or weaker than others.
For example, a certain bar material/size/weight may absorb certain frequencies of the string vibration more than others, affecting what we'd percieve as the "tone". |
I agree with most of this post, but it's simply not true that sustain goes up as weight goes up. There is certainly a point of diminishing returns. All you have to do is compare a 2 ounce bar, a 4 ounce bar and an 8 ounce one, and see the last two have practically the same sustain to figure that one out. Mike is right to a point too. Heavy gauge strings do need more mass, but, I play a .60+ gauge bass string with a four ounce bar and it sustains about the same as my heavier bars according to my timer. In fact six string guitar players (you know, everyone else but us  ) rarely use more than a two ounce slide for .52 strings or so. It's very much a matter of preference and skill. Vibrato/tremelo extends sustain, so don't even bring in that variable! The rougher the bar in vibrato the longer the sustain, so a smoother bar will sustain less.
I'm not an idiot, bars sound different, don't get me wrong. I just don't believe length of sustain is directly linkable to weight above a certain point. Yes, you definitely have to have a certain weight or it sounds like crap.
Last edited by Nicholai Steindler on 12 Aug 2010 7:15 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Chris Walke
From:
St Charles, IL
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Posted 12 Aug 2010 6:36 am
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This product (made by a forumite) may unravel the more weight=better tone and/or more sustain argument.
http://www.stoneslides.com/
I have 2 of these. MUCH lighter than my metal bars, but I wouldn't say there's any less sustain or that the tone is buzzy or thinner. The tone IS different, tho', but not in a bad way at all.
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***WARNING: the above commentary is probably Chris' OPINION, and therefore, he thinks he's right. |
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Chris Drew
From:
Bristol, UK
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Posted 12 Aug 2010 7:26 am
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| Nicholai Steindler wrote: |
| I'm not an idiot, bars sound different, don't get me wrong. I just don't believe length of sustain is directly linkable to weight above a certain point. Yes, you definitely have to have a certain weight or it sounds like crap. |
I see your point...
Beyond a certain weight the increase in sustain will be less, to the point of being negligable or (more accurately) imperceptable.. it isn't a linear relationship.
A fixed fret doesn't get you infinite sustain!
So your "point of diminishing returns" comment holds true.
But you can't argue against the physics regarding the bar-mass/inertia vs string vibration relationship, although this is oversimplifying the issue & disregards all other factors.
Regardless, it really is a simple truth.
Well, I guess you can argue... in the same way that people can argue for creationism... 
I have some of those Paloma stone slides & the sustain seems remarkably good considering the low mass.
This proves there's more involved than just mass...
Perception of the sound is a big factor (ie, what happens to the sound after it gets to our ears).
IMO, you can use the science of acoustics to explain "sound"... but to explain "music" you need psychoacoustics.
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Mark Roeder
From:
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2010 10:59 am
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I found that there is more sustain in my heavy bar than my medium. More importantly, as Mike mentioned, the weight helps me with touch and string buzz. Less hand pressure to get the tone I'd like.
The missing piece of this is that we can't hear what each of us is hearing when we discribe these audio topics on line. Only in general terms do we maybe know what amount of sustain someone is talking about. 
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 12 Aug 2010 11:41 am
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For the swing music I play, I prefer slightly less sustain to slightly more sustain and I definitely prefer lighter to heavier. I also prefer materials other than metal, such as lead crystal and glazed ceramic.
It's like the difference between a heavy Les Paul and a light Tele. The LP is gonna have more sustain, but it sure won't snap like that Tele!
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Primitive Utility Steel |
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Jay Seibert
From:
Woodland, WA, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 7:13 am Bar weight, sustain, and tone
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There is no question that countless players have enjoyed the tonal/sustain benefits a heavy steel bar delivers. Certainly, there have been ten of thousands sold over the years. But recently, many players have enjoyed trying some new options available out there.
Since my first post earlier this year, right here on the Forum, I have sold over 300 Paloma Stone Slides to Forum members... and have yet to have one purchased and returned as being too light or failing to deliver enough sustain or good solid tone. Yes, you might need to use a bit more pressure than you are accustomed to, but the lighter weight seems to be really appreciated for a number of reasons... whether it be more speed going from here to there, or more comfort/easier to hold in the hand for long periods of playing time. And many have enjoyed and commented on the slightly warmer tone delivered. See reviews at www.stoneslides.com/reviews .
Just a thought... how much sustain is enough? When playing a musical phrase, how often do you require a note or notes to hold a long, long, time? Don't we use a volume pedal and /or some vibrato to assist in that regard?
As I have mentioned on the Forum in other posts, I am a newbie to this steel world and have happily just ordered a new console from Robert Allen in Tennessee. The consistent stream of input I have received on my bars and slides have helped me to improve my products and better understand the player's needs. And comments regarding tone, sustain, and bar preferences as posted in this string and others are very educational... that's why I enjoy being a member of this Forum and I thank all of you for your participation!
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 8:34 am
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As a player whose qualification to render an opinion is for having been around a long time, (think geezer), I believe all of the above comments have merit.
My first bar was one of those little flat hawaiian bars that had about as much sustain as a Prince Albert can, (you older guys may have to tell the younger ones what that is), and during the years since, I've owned or played about everything that has evolved. Most of them were designed for the music being played, for example, the small round nose for single string, or the large heavy bars for sustain and chords. Most of us easily adjusted to whatever we needed at the time.
However, a consideration initially mentioned is the comfort factor, and that is a valid reason to choose a particular bar. As I have grown older I have experienced physical changes that dictate the bar I use, i.e., a bit of arthritis in the thumb and fingers results in difficulty in using a small diameter bar, so I was forced to use the largest bar available. That ended up being a plus when playing on the E9 neck....but don't ask what it did to the bottom neck!
My point, if there is one, is that everything has it's purpose in time, steel-guitar bars included.
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 9:10 am
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I'm curious as to what you guys think is the minimum weight you can play with without sacrificing your favorite tone (please keep in mind different materials make a huge difference, it helps to compare weight material to material), regardless of arguments, this is just curiosity. What do you feel is the minimum for everyday playing? What is the bar made of and how big is it? What string gauges are you using?
I agree comfort is a big deal, as a disabled guy, I go for that first.
Interestingly I sent a customer two bars, one was larger than the other and they chose the smaller lighter bar because of it's comfort, I was completely surprised, I liked the slightly larger one. There was some mojo in the shaping of it, but I was still shocked. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 10:19 am
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| the bigger the bar the better the odds in a bar fight. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 12:08 pm
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Whenever you have a problem such as this you need to imagine the extremes. Get a light aluminum bar with very little mass and see how much sustain it has. Then get a really heavy peace of round bar and see how much sustain thaat has.
It you think it's dimensions rather than mass that's the deciding factor then get a length of stainless steel plumbing and compare it with a tiny tube.
The rules that apply to extremes usually also apply to smaller variations, but to a lesser extent.
Logic says that if you rock the bar, a larger diameter bar will rock through a longer length of its circumference compared with a small bar rocked through the same angle.
Last edited by Alan Brookes on 13 Aug 2010 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 12:26 pm
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Personally I think the variables are way too complex to simplify to mass or volume. You need X mass, total weight/mass must be greater than Y (based on string mass), (or tone may suffer), then there is crystalline structure, "impurities" in said structure, volume, transmission of vibrations to hand, string bounce (slide material hardness, etc.), shape of the bar (you better believe it is bouncing vibrations through it and back into the strings) and resonance .
You guys are playing with some complex stuff here.  |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 2:14 pm
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Mark:
I've been using one Jay's stone bar ever since I got one and have been really impressed with it. I will get out my JD 920 if I need a really strong sound on the bass strings.
As for weight, pressure on the bar will have pretty much the same effect (I push down all of the time- I think it is more expressive). However, the lighter bar does lack the inertia of the heavier bar.
My own suggestion is to use the lighter bar when you can and only switch to the heavier bar when you need it. Your wrists will thank you... <g>
Steve Ahola
P.S. I still need to get one of Jay's larger diameter bars as I think that would give me still another option. BTW Jay's bar was the first bar that I could actually lift off the strings (besides the Steven and GS "dobro" bars). I did find it flying out of my hands from time to time so I put a round velco button (they call them coins) covering the curvature of the bullet end and another one on the base. I first tried the soft velcro loops but that didn't work out very well so I switched to the velcro hooks (which hurt like hell until I developed callouses. But they do say "no pain, no gain" LOL)
Oh, by putting the velcro "coins" on the JD 920 bar I was able to hold that as well, but without the finesse of the stone bar. "Finesse"- that's the word I was thinking of! On lap steel I like to finesse the strings kinda like I used to do on regular guitar, but by doing things like changing the pressure and putting a little bit of a slant in there. Like what I used to call "finger English" only now it is "bar English". Of course all of that will be a "no no" when I start learning how to play my pedal steel. (I was going to use the word "graduate" but it's not like I will ever be leaving lap steel behind- you can do things on lap steel that are very difficult if not impossible to play on pedal steel.)
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 2:18 pm
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| Nicholai Steindler wrote: |
| You guys are playing with some complex stuff here. |
I think it is fairly simple: if it works for you go for it! <g> But it is good to know what you might be missing (I had been using nothing but my GS bar when I'd screw around on lap steel the past few years- "who needs a heavy bullet bar???")
So how are your glass bars working out?
Steve
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Mark Lavelle
From:
San Mateo, CA
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 4:19 pm
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| Nicholai Steindler wrote: |
Personally I think the variables are way too complex to simplify to mass or volume. You need X mass, total weight/mass must be greater than Y (based on string mass), (or tone may suffer), then there is crystalline structure, "impurities" in said structure, volume, transmission of vibrations to hand, string bounce (slide material hardness, etc.), shape of the bar (you better believe it is bouncing vibrations through it and back into the strings) and resonance .
You guys are playing with some complex stuff here. |
Yeah, there's a lot of oversimplification in this thread.
For one, you can't decouple weight (or mass) from the fact that you are holding it! I don't think anyone here can play very much that's worth hearing without holding the bar (thus adding mass and a different damping 'layer')! So IMHO the best you can say is that there's probably some minimum weight+pressure.
Still haven't seen much on the radius part, but I suppose you can't really decouple that parameter either...
But next time my wife sez "ANOTHER bar?!" I'll point her at this thread.
-- Mark
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Nicholai Steindler
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2010 4:38 pm
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| Steve Ahola wrote: |
| Nicholai Steindler wrote: |
| You guys are playing with some complex stuff here. |
I think it is fairly simple: if it works for you go for it! <g> But it is good to know what you might be missing (I had been using nothing but my GS bar when I'd screw around on lap steel the past few years- "who needs a heavy bullet bar???")
So how are your glass bars working out?
Steve |
I think that sums it up pretty nicely there Steve. Everyone has a different set of needs.
My bars? Slow steady sales, just what I wanted! No one has complained, a few people have liked them, one guy said he was using it more than he was expecting to,I can't really ask for more. I was trying not to sell myself in this thread though, conflict of interest! I really like them for certain uses, fast stuff, blues, southern rock kind of stuff, etc. I'm sure people are doing other things with them, I'm not your average player. Thanks for asking.
I am introducing a heavier set of bars made out of, pause, wait for it, nah I'm going to break it yet, lets just say it's denser and has a more perfect crystal structure than glass (NOT zirconia). So you heavy guys, check back with me later.  |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 14 Aug 2010 9:38 am
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If you buy one of Bobby Seymour's plastic-filled-with-lead bars, which he sells to go along with his processor which makes an electric steel sound like a dobro, it definitely shows a reduction in sustain. The bar is as heavy as a regular bar, but the material on the surface has a big impact on the sound.
The size of the bar has an impact on speediness of movement. When I play Dobro I'm rolling chords as you would on a banjo, and you need a lot of quick bar movement. For that I use one of the smaller Tribotones. But on pedal steel I'm only playing two or three notes at a time, and they're longer, so I use a heavy chromium-plated bar.
I also have a wooden bar, which my grandfather turned on a lathe for me nearly fifty years ago, and that gives a totally different sound. |
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Alexa Gomez
From:
San Francisco
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Posted 14 Aug 2010 12:54 pm Why suffer?
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Hi Mark,
I've used the Stevens, round-nose, and Lapdawg tonebars and found them somewhat unwieldy. I use the Peavy tone bar, in the photo below, which came with a Power Slide. It's just this lightweight piece of chrome-plsted sheet metal fashioned into the tonebar shape. I must confess I do notice a loss of sustain using it versus heavier tonebars, but the maneuverability offsets that, at least for me. Plus you can put it on a keychain. 
Alexa
 [/img]
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