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Topic: Sustain? |
Bunky Markert
From:
Rehoboth Beach, DE, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 8:50 am |
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I just performed a gig with less than stellar results and was wondering how I could improve. I undoubtedly bit off more than I could chew, the vocalist did a more than credible rendition of Sweet Memories, based on my suggestion of the Time Jumpers version. I on the other hand attempted to cover the John Hughey solo on a D-8 Stringmaster. A lot of bar slants to say the least, but that wasn't the problem so much.
I just couldn't get the higher register notes to ring long enough. I know those pedal steel guys use compressors, and I tried that too (I used a compressor setting on a Korg multi-effects box I had) but it sounded ringy and lousy. I ended up using a smaller amp hoping to get more amp sustain, but it didn't help much, and just made it sound "Hawaiian-y". I didn't expect to get the clear bell-like tones Mr. Hughey got but at least something better. Any ideas? Better strings maybe? Your thoughts... |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 8:54 am
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This is one of the problems for me with the short scale Stringmasters, that is why I prefer the longer scale. The notes in the upper range just seem to evaporate.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 9:06 am
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Check the bolts that are covered by the diamond plates on the front and make sure they are tight. Do the same thing with all of the bolted down parts (tuner pans, pickup plates, etc.) The idea is to minimize string energy loss through rattling of parts other than the strings. Don't over-tighten and strip anything though!
It's also true that you will not get a Stringmaster to sound like a PSG -- and that's a good thing IMO! I personally am not fond of the sound of PSG in western swing. Give me a good Fender tone any day. YMMV. 
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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Bunky Markert
From:
Rehoboth Beach, DE, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 9:18 am
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| Would changing the tuning have helped? The solo is in G, I was using FACEGACE (low to high) which puts a lot of it up in the 17th, 19th and 24th position. Like Mike says, it evaporates. I probably should have changed strings beforehand, I was being cheap. |
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Mark Roeder
From:
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 9:18 am
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One thing I do when I want more sustain on a ballad is use a heavy bar. I have a mid weight Tribotone I use for faster songs when the sustain muddies up my playing ( it maybe partly that I am in the beginner stages of this instrument) but I found a BJS heavy bar helps me with sustain on the slow songs.
_________________
www.deluxe34.com lap steel stands, Clinesmith, Gibson Console Grande, Northwesterns, The Best Westerns
https://www.facebook.com/TheBestWesterns |
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Bunky Markert
From:
Rehoboth Beach, DE, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 9:58 am
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| These are all good suggestions. Thanks. Keep 'em coming. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 10:02 am Just my point of view...............
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Bunky.......that's why JERRY BYRD used his 'special' string set-up. I've found that it also works for me!
I think much of your problem is most likely your STRINGS but can't say that for sure. Wound strings tend to dry-up quickly with respect to sustain.
I have a LONG SCALE JERRY BYRD RICKENBACHER and it has fabulous sustain in all areas.
You might want to consider that? |
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Mark Roeder
From:
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 10:26 am
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Ray, could you post that tuning and the string choices you have for it. I have been experimenting with how many plain strings I can use before there isn't enough tension in the string.
_________________
www.deluxe34.com lap steel stands, Clinesmith, Gibson Console Grande, Northwesterns, The Best Westerns
https://www.facebook.com/TheBestWesterns |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 4:21 pm In answer to your question................
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Thanks for your inquiry........
If I may suggest, visit the JerryByrdFanClub.com
Go to Jerry's Guitars page for details.
If you still need additional info', drop me another email.. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Aug 2010 4:47 pm
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I'm thinking you may want to try a C6 with a high G just to keep you from having to play as far up the neck.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mark Mansueto
From:
Michigan, USA
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 4 Aug 2010 8:54 am
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If you use a compressor to try to get more sustain when there is nothing there in the first place, you'll wind up with nothing but ugly overtones.
Either try changing your tuning to E6 with a G# on top, or C6 with a G on top.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mark Mansueto
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2010 10:41 am
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You're right, Mike, I should have mentioned that compressors do create noise which varies depending on how they're set. And when Bunky mentioned that he was having trouble with upper register notes I wasn't thinking about notes high up on the neck but rather any high note even low on the neck.
That said, I would never use a compressor while playing solo but I couldn't imagine playing in a band using a clean tone without one.
_________________
https://markmansueto.bandcamp.com/
https://open.spotify.com/artist/65dQ3EyZC2RaqawA8gPlRy?si=dOdqc5zxSKeJI9cISVVx_A |
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Gene Warner
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2010 6:35 pm
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I have experienced the weaker sustain on the high end of the short scale Stringmasters also. I decided to try something on mine that you might want to experiment with, yourselves. It doesn't alter your instrument in any way, so it can always be returned to stock if you desire.
On my double 8, the bridge bars sit up on top of two small raised "nubs', with open air underneath the full length of the bridge bar. I took some careful measurements, and cut two rectangular plates of .018 brass sheeting, that were 1/4 inch X 2 1/2". I obtained the brass in a well equipped model airplane shop, where I buy lots of stuff for my repair shop. They had a rack with all different gauges of brass sheeting. You should measure your steel with the strings removed, to see if it measures the same as mine.
Cut out the pieces, being careful to keep them real flat, with no kinks or bends in them. If you have cut them to the correct size, they will slip right under the bridge bar, between the two nubs, flat against the tailpiece plate, and become just about invisible. The string tension holds them in place. The bridge bar will now rest on top of the sheet of brass, instead of air! That has to be better doesn't it?
I will not claim that it sounds the way my old longer scale Stringmaster did, but I really think it has helped. You can't loose much, but two or three bucks, and a little time.
Gene Warner
repairman |
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Bunky Markert
From:
Rehoboth Beach, DE, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2010 3:31 pm
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| The Forum be thinkin'. Great suggestions guys. I thought the bridge/nut arrangement on a Stringmaster was definitely a weak link. I'm going to mess around with these. I'll report back. Thanks. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 8 Aug 2010 4:26 pm
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| Gene Warner wrote: |
| ...On my double 8, the bridge bars sit up on top of two small raised "nubs', with open air underneath the full length of the bridge bar.... |
I've only worked on one Stringmaster, but I have a lot of experience building a large diversity of acoustic instruments. When you look at instruments like the violin and the banjo, where the intention is to REDUCE sustain, they always have split bridges with little feet which reduce the contact area with the body of the instrument as much as possible. If you want to get maximum sustain you need as large a contact area between the bridge and body as possible, with the intention of making the transmission of the vibrations as easy as it can be. If possible the angle that the string makes at the bridge should be as sharp as possible, preferably by the strings passing through the body and making a 90º turn at the bridge. That makes a much higher downward thrust on the body. The way the Stringmaster bridge rests on those two points is not condusive to economically passing vibrations from the strings to the body.
Don't be misled into thinking that the principles of acoustic instruments don't apply to electric instruments; they do. On regular electric guitars there's a big movement towards string-through-body construction, and that's the way lap steels should be built.
Gene's modification, creating a wider surface area for the transmission of vibrations, makes a lot of sense.
For the record, it's a mathematically-demonstrable fact that the longer the sounding length of s string the more it will sustain. Long-scale instruments will always sustain longer than regular-scale instruments, all things being equal. I've built lap steels with scales 6" longer than usual, and they just go on sounding... |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2010 4:45 pm
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| the angle that the string makes at the bridge should be as sharp as possible, preferably by the strings passing through the body and making a 90º turn at the bridge. |
Same for the nut. Those round Fender bridges/nuts tend to take away from the fullest sound potential of these guitars. Some however do tend to sound/sustain much better than their brothers.
I'd bet that if Fender's were made as Alan suggests, they would be much different/better steels. |
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Mike Bagwell
From:
Greenville, SC, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2010 7:03 pm
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Pedal Steel player get much of their sustain using the following equipment and technique.
1. Volume pedal
2. A powerful amp
3. Crank the amp up much louder than you intend to play
4. Get your normal max lead volume with the volume pedal about 1/2 way down.
5. When the note(s) begins to die push the volume pedal down and try to keep the note at the same volume as it dies.
I've never seen a pedal steel player use a compressor for sustain purposes, Buddy wold sometimes use one to get agressive pop when playing single notes. |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2010 7:32 pm
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| Mike Bagwell wrote: |
Pedal Steel player get much of their sustain using the following equipment and technique.
1. Volume pedal
2. A powerful amp
3. Crank the amp up much louder than you intend to play
4. Get your normal max lead volume with the volume pedal about 1/2 way down.
5. When the note(s) begins to die push the volume pedal down and try to keep the note at the same volume as it dies. |
I guess I'm doing pretty good then with my lap steel straight into a MicroCube. Plenty of sustain for the country pedal steel music I play. |
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Benjamin Franz
From:
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Posted 9 Aug 2010 5:15 am
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| Mike Bagwell wrote: |
Pedal Steel player get much of their sustain using the following equipment and technique.
1. Volume pedal
2. A powerful amp
3. Crank the amp up much louder than you intend to play
4. Get your normal max lead volume with the volume pedal about 1/2 way down.
5. When the note(s) begins to die push the volume pedal down and try to keep the note at the same volume as it dies.
I've never seen a pedal steel player use a compressor for sustain purposes, Buddy wold sometimes use one to get agressive pop when playing single notes. |
When doing as Mike suggests, your volume pedal works as a manual compressor.
Also, compressors vary greatly in quality, and i would suspect that the compressor in a Korg multi effects unit, would be of poor quality, hence the lousy sound. There's a reason why recording studios spend thousands of dollars on a compressor. Just like instruments, there's no comparison between a two or three thousand dollar compressor and a hundred dollar compressor.
Not that I advocate using a compressor with any type of steel guitar! Just follow Mikes method. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 9 Aug 2010 4:13 pm
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| Ron Whitfield wrote: |
| ...Same for the nut... |
I agree. Have you noticed that, on the lute, the peghead is bent back by 90°? That's to put more pressure on the nut. |
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Bunky Markert
From:
Rehoboth Beach, DE, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2010 1:02 pm
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| I realized while changing my strings that the bridge rests squarely on the plate that houses the pickups and controls. There are no supporting posts under the bridge as Gene described. Not that his idea is not a good one, just that I don't see how to improve what is already there. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2010 4:10 pm
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When you get up high in the fret board and want to sustain, do not dampen the strings behind the bar.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Gene Warner
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2010 9:47 am
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The little "nubs" I described, are not on all the Stringmasters, but on my short scale it is made that way. As I recall my old triple neck (which was a longer scale length) wasn't made that way. The modification I describe, is only for those Fender models where the bridge bar rests on two little raised metal things, one at each end.
Gene Warner
repairman |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 18 Aug 2010 12:28 pm
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| Mike Bagwell wrote: |
Pedal Steel player get much of their sustain using the following equipment and technique.
1. Volume pedal
2. A powerful amp
3. Crank the amp up much louder than you intend to play
4. Get your normal max lead volume with the volume pedal about 1/2 way down.
5. When the note(s) begins to die push the volume pedal down and try to keep the note at the same volume as it dies.
I've never seen a pedal steel player use a compressor for sustain purposes, Buddy would sometimes use one to get aggressive pop when playing single notes. |
This is the answer, I know, I play most types of steel guitar, and have a few varied ones. The non pedal steel can only sound like a pedal steel if using the mindset AND peripherals that a pedal steel player uses.
The main factor to sustain is use of the volume pedal and judicious use of vibrato to extend the note by exciting the string(s) before they die..
The Volume pedals is better described as a "Swell" pedal (al la organ.)
ALSO pick softer and use just the bridge pickup, the ratio of transient to sustain in the note will be less (that's the desirable way)By picking hard you are increasing the level of the transient compared to the tail of the note (Sustained part) The PERCEIVED sustain is less in those circumstances because the transient sets the level of the steel in the audible mix.. |
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