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Topic: E 6/9 Tuning S10 Setup-(5) Major Triad Examples |
Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 14 Jul 2010 12:30 pm |
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Hello Steel Guitar Forum! I believe I have provided some fairly good material on how the 12 string setup I use can be utilized from both an E9 and C6 perspective. That said, I have been working for quite some time on exactly how I could share more of my methods, knowledge, and approach to the instrument. What this has led me to is sort of an invention of my tuning copedent in a 10 string tuning setup.
Hopefully, this looks a lot less intimidating for those of you that are already accustomed to 10 string setups. This is EVERYTHING you need to accomplish some great music on the pedal steel.
Now today I have posted a video that hopefully can provide just some ground work on what this looks like and maybe you'll see just how simple it can be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWzWi380lZ4
Raising and lowering of E's and the A,B,C pedals could be rearranged to better fit your needs. Please email me if you want a chart of this tuning OR if you want me to design a copedent for you based on your 10 string setup with regard to pedal and lever arrangements.[/b]
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com
Last edited by Zane King on 21 Jul 2010 7:57 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 8:08 am 10 String E 6/9 Tuning
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Later today I'll be posting a video on You Tube regarding this 10 string approach to my tuning setup. As you see above, I'm introducing to the steel guitar community a version of my 12 string 7 pedal / 5 knee setup in a 10 string 3 pedal/5 knee setup.
We just started this conversation yesterday so be sure to check out the 1st video and chart on this E 6/9 tuning. We will discuss the "6/9" meaning today. I appreciate everyone's interest in my work. Hopefully, I can create a system here that is functional and teachable.
Stay tuned,
Zane
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 8:40 am they added 3 high strings but
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| Zane K. One thing that always bothered me is that when they added the three high strings, G#, D# and F#, they took away the G# on the 8th position of the 8 string steel because they went to a 10 string steel instead of an 11 string steel. By going to a 12 string steel, one could add the C# on position 5 and add G# back on position 12..so the tuning would be from top to bottom as follows: F#, D#, G#, E C#, B, G#, F#, E, D, B and G#. One could always lower the 12th string from G# to E if desired...just a thought about having the best of both worlds of the E9th and the ZB tunings..what think you? |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 10:10 am
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Brad M. - that's an interesting proposition of the C# note in between E and B. As you know, I'm an explorer so I take all possibilities to heart. What I do know is that the C# note definitely works. No one disagrees with that and most E players have it somewhere on the top few strings. Rarely do you find it however in the open tuning. Plow ahead!!!
Stay tuned,
ZK
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 11:53 am E 6/9 Tuning
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Video #2 An explanation on why I call this the E 6/9 tuning.
First of all, I am not naive enough to believe this is a totally new concept! I fully realize that several of these ideas with regard to tuning setup have been tried in various forms. However, in the interest of trying to create some systematic and baseline information so we can move forward I felt the need to develop this copedent.
The tuning setup is above. Just for some written explanation on the E 6/9 I offer the following.
6/9 is a chord. Just like E9 is chord. What is a 9 chord? 9 chords by definition would need a 7. I don't want to get to heavy here in theory but simply put a 6/9 chord is a very popular voicing/chord in jazz and other forms of music. Simply it is this...1, 3, 5, 6, 9. In other words, E, G#, B, C#, F#. That is the E 6/9 chord. Look now again above at my open tuning setup and what do you see?
Now why is it NOT just E9? Because there is not a "7" for starters. Remember, 9 Chords need 7. Just like counting you can't count to 9 without using 7. 
A fun little fact here too is that when you look at my 12 string or 10 string setup in a "C" mode it also is a C 6/9. Sort of handy huh?
Here is a video explaining this further and with some examples...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1GozvDp4Ts
Stay tuned,
ZK
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 1:24 pm C# between E and B
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that's an interesting proposition of the C# note in between E and B.<<
ZK, I am puzzled by your reply because Zane Beck has the C# between the E and B note..what am I not understanding? |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 1:58 pm
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Brad M. - sorry I was not clearer in my previous message. What I meant it is an interesting proposition to have the "C#" note in between the E and B along with the F# and D# at the top. Certainly, no need to convince me of the value of the C# note and where it should be placed. My only concern with what you suggested is that it might be overkill to have the C# and D# in the same open tuning. I think it is a fair assessment that the C# in my tuning replaces the 2nd string D#. Or at least that is how I view it.
Brad I have studied E9 guitars my entire career. I have one here right now. I used to simply work out everything on my guitar and then transpose what I could to the E9 in order to present teaching materials. Here is what I can tell you and I'm not trying to boast whatsoever. I simply can not achieve near the amount of music with a standard E9 as I can on my setup. I realize that my 10 string setup that I just proposed and my 12 string complete setup sort of flies in the face of what might be tradition. The symmetry and balance throws some people off. I just had a "known" player (12 string E9 extended picker) come to my place today. He sat down at my guitar and within 60 seconds he said, "What is this?" He could not get his sense of direction at all. So that said, my guitar is not Universal. There are very few players that sight unseen could take my guitar on a gig. I only know of about 10 pickers that have my 12 string setup or something close to it.
Rambling I guess at this point. Yet I want to make a point here that E9/C6 players are amazing and I respect what they do. Many 12 string and 10 string players are equally as amazing. My objective is simple. I'm offering an option. Two actually. A 10 string tuning setup and a 12 string setup that is different. What I hope to accomplish is to inspire players to find more musical space than what is currently available on the E9/C6 or Uni. I know that sounds bold to say on my part because it could be interpreted that I'm say my approach is superior. All I can say is that yet remains to be seen. I can tell you that I'm determined. I always have been. I've never danced to the same beat as everyone else. Something that was instilled in me through Zane Beck at an early age. He certainly exemplified that in his character. Bottom line, I'm here to keep this instrument moving forward. My contribution at this point seems to be sharing my experience and knowledge with others.
Respectfully,
ZK
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2010 4:21 pm the C# in my tuning replaces the 2nd string D#.
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My only concern with what you suggested is that it might be overkill to have the C# and D# in the same open tuning. I think it is a fair assessment that the C# in my tuning replaces the 2nd string D#. Or at least that is how I view it.<<
Zane, Thanks for the explanation about the C# replacing the D#. I was thinking the C# was an added note in the E9th tuning to make it an E9/6 tuning. I also thought it would be easier for the E9th players to have the F#, D# and G# on strings 1, 2 and 3. I guess I was trying to have the best of both worlds. Thanks again for your posts..you have a lot of people thinking. |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 16 Jul 2010 5:15 am
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Brad you are right! I never knew there was that much interest in tuning alternatives let alone mine. I love it because being able to share and teach is providing me the motivation to push forward myself.
I've been working this 10 string BMI over (the top side that is) and I'm loving what it is opening up for me. This 10 string version of my tuning seems to honestly open up something musically that I hadn't considered before. Just thinking out loud here but it almost seems that the limitation it has is yet a window into a certain styling. It's truly hard to explain but as I've been working on demonstrating this 10 string 3 pedal 5 knee setup the "commercial" E9th type stylings are just pouring out of it.
I'm VERY excited about being able to introduce a 10 string "E" mode of my setup. At the same time though, my complete setup has evolved into a nice option for the player that wants to go deep into the world of extended chords and musical freedom.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 16 Jul 2010 7:21 pm
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| NOW you really have gotten me interested. Wondering what pedals you would add for a 5X5. |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 6:16 am
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Rich-pretty simple really setting up 10 strings 5 x 5.
Consider taking the LKV and lowering the 6th string G# to F#. Many players do that and it has some nice applications.
Next...in this setup I suggest lowering the "B"s on the LKV...however, I have used this on my pedal #5.
Lastly, I would suggest on one of the pedals (not in the B A C arrangement) to be a minor pedal. If you lower the the G#s half tone then you have a complete minor mode in the open tuning. I find this is very applicable for a not only chords but also scales as well.
It's good to have you following along!!!
Zane
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 8:05 am
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Zane, this 10 string setup you have might be an option for some of the D-10 players who've voiced on the Forum that they wanted to try something other than C6 on the inside neck. They usually have 5 pedals assigned to that neck so there shouldn't be much of a problem to experiment with it.......
Would you consider my tuning a form of an E9/6? It's set up from the top down: F# C# G# E B G# F# E C# B G# E. ......JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Franklin
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 8:23 am
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Zane and Brad,
I am assuming this is also a discussion about whats possible by expanding the E9th vs other alternatives like Zane's tuning.......
I suggest considering Buddy's explorations......In the 70's, Buddy Emmons put a C# in the middle of his 12 string E9th and kept the D#......Can't remember what the bottom notes were. Maybe someone knows?
Technique wise, I see a benefit for having both the C# and D# strings is a plus....For example raising the C# to D and lowering the F# to F presents chromatic notes on four separate strings,
which are D, D#, E, F. Move the bar 4 frets and continue the chromatic scale in sequence. Chromatic speed is increased immeasurably because of the ease of achieving specific chromatic patterns on four strings without much bar movement.
The standard E9th already has a chromatic grouping of three strings, again because of having a D# string in an E tuning.......Its standard to lower the D# to D, E to D#, and raise the B to C#.......We have the chromatic grouping of C#, D, and D# on three seperate strings.. Allows us to move the bar every three frets to get a chromatic scale.
Paul |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 9:12 am
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Paul - what meaningful input! My studies of tunings and how they have evolved is sometimes still guess work by just trying to make sense of the variations. I've heard the stories about Emmon's 12 string exploration too. I take to heart the possibility that C# and D# could be useful. That'll be fun to think about.
Now in another thread we discussed these chromatic groupings. From my proposed E 6/9 Setup above you could easily lower the 2nd string F# to E and do the following...2nd pedal/LKL engaged
string 5 = C#
string 4 = D
string 3 = D#
string 2 = E (if the whole lower is added)
If I'm correct on your suggestion of the 3 chromatic notes on your E9 setup (C#,D,D#) you would play those in sequence of thumb (C#), middle (D), and index (D#). Paul while you have the dexterity to accomplish that with ease it still takes tremendous skill to do that movement. What I propose in this tuning is a simple Thumb, Index, Middle movement (see above to use strings 5,4,3. This easy finger movement likely was the first thing you and I learned when we first sat behind a steel. I also believe that the phrasing of that pattern has subtle differences. Both are very cool! But yet slightly varied. I do wonder if that "4th" chromatic in the above was added what the best way to attack that would be with regard to thumb/finger arrangement. It would yet even be another variance that likely would be valuable to us.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 9:20 am
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Jerry H. Yes that is a version E 6/9. So is that your open tuning on your E neck?
As for D10 players trading their C6 neck in for my E 6/9 10 string setup, I'm not sure I see the value. However, any player who wants to experiment with my ideas I'll be willing to help. That said, I prefer to engage players on either a 10 string or 12 string setup.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 12:35 pm chromatic notes on four separate strings,
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For example raising the C# to D and lowering the F# to F presents chromatic notes on four separate strings<<
Paul F, Thank you very much for your insight about getting chromatic notes on four separate strings. I already lower my strings 1 and 7 F#'s to F with my RLKL. When I lower my E's to Eb on strings 4 and 8 with my LRKL and lower my F#'s with the RLKL I duplicate pedal 5 on the C6th tuning by getting a C#9th chord with out the root. Just engaging the RLKL duplicates C6th pedal combination 5 and 6...I find lowering the F#'s to F a very useful change on the E9th tuning because it works with so many of the other pedal changes. I think adding the C# on string 5 is a great idea but I also like F#, D# and G# on strings 1, 2, and 3..your insight about the slants being easier because of that placement was also very valuable..great thought was made on their placement. I do realize that by adding the C# on string 5 one would have to go to a 12 string steel but we would be getting that G# back on string 12 that they took away when they went from a 8 string to a ten string steel but added three strings, G#, D# and F# on string 3, 2 and 1. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 17 Jul 2010 12:46 pm
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Zane, yes that is my open tuning on my S-12. The way I came about it was hearing that some C6th players were dropping the low C string and moving strings 8 and 9 down a slot and adding another D string in there. I figured that since I was playing a Uni, if I dropped the low B string and added a C# note in slot nine that when I lowered my E's I'd have that. I tried it and really like it a bunch, the 2nd string C# came after some experimentation with what Hal Rugg & Weldon Myrick were doing with it.
Paul, that tuning that Buddy used on the "Rainbow Album" was on a 12 string in which Buddy just added a C# note in slot 5 and moved everything else down and added a low E string in the 12th slot. Everything else was his usual pedal changes I believe.....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 18 Jul 2010 10:50 am
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Jerry where would I find that recording of Buddy's that you mention called "Rainbow"?
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Bob Tuttle
From:
Republic, MO 65738
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Posted 18 Jul 2010 1:23 pm
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Zane, You can buy it on Amazon.com.
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 18 Jul 2010 5:05 pm
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Zane, I'm not sure of the album name but it has a picture of Buddy on the front sitting behind a 12 string steel with a rainbow over his hands, that's why it's known as the "Rainbow Album". Lots of good stuff on there. Also, the 12 string Emmons he's playing on there has a second pickup down near the nut for some effects, I'm not sure what.....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 19 Jul 2010 7:36 am
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Thanks, Jerry. I remember hearing some things from this record. Did he truly play a 12 string on it? I didn't realize he advanced that far with the 12 string idea. Should be interesting looking into all of that.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 20 Jul 2010 8:37 am
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Some quick updates to this original post. I found that the 10th string G# to A on 3rd pedal is just as easy on the 1st pedal. That makes the "pedals down" position for all (5) five triads on easier.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 20 Jul 2010 8:38 pm Major Triad Exhibits
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In the interest of cohesiveness I wanted to keep these posts in one threads yet I wanted to call attention to the new video exhibits for anyone that might just be joining the conversation.
This is the 3rd video presentation on my E 6/9 Tuning for S10. I'm still analyzing and working on this setup but certainly the major portion of it is finished. I'm just carefully considering other ideas so that we can accomplish any and all stylings that are typical of 10 string setups.
Here is the link for the major triad study.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNxpnpdAQBw
For convenience here are the two previous related links..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWzWi380lZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1GozvDp4Ts
Stay tuned,
Zane
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 21 Jul 2010 7:09 am
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Zane, thanks for the videos and ideas you've been presenting on these series. I've been trying out some of the things you do with the forward rolls in speed picking situations. I noticed that I have the same sequence of strings in my tuning as you do on your first five strings except an octave lower. I have the G# F# E C# B on strings 6,7,8,9 & 10 and I tried some or your "rolls" down there on a break on a bluegrass tune at the gig last night and it actually worked out pretty well. I'm not quite as adept at the pick blocking thing as you but I'll keep working on that aspect of it. Keep up the good stuff, it's nice to see a new perspective and outlook on the steel guitar........JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 22 Jul 2010 6:19 am
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Jerry - I'm convinced that the layout of my tuning gives me a distinct advantage especially where speed is critical. I think it will be interesting as more pickers consider my approach/setup. In time others will discover they can play faster and more effective on those basic rolls with the symmetry of notes.
You are already have a version of my E 6/9 with those C# notes in your open tuning. Many will argue they can accomplish the same "music" that I can or more. That may be true but I've yet to find anyone that will challenge me on it. I've searched for many e9 patterns, licks, and riffs. Most of them are not only doable but much easier on my guitar. Just this chromatic argument alone is one of the first examples of this. On standard E9 at most you have 3 notes in sequence of a chromatic. And honestly that's not even the definition of a chromatic but that's another topic. All that said, I can't wait for more players to give my setup (10 or 12) a real try. I believe for the novice who is working hard at advancing might realize progress fairly soon once they overcome the initial learning curve. That's my opinion anyway.
Thanks, Jerry for your input. You obviously are a knowledgeable player. I hope to hear you play someday.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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