compensator question

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

I am trying to tune my guitar and I noticed that all the compensators are on the lowers. However, I don't have any on the raises. And when I press A pedal down, the 6th string G# goes flat about 8 or 9 cents. It seems to me that it should have a compensator on the 6 string raise to bring it back up to pitch.

Do a lot of people have this problem? Do most of you add a compensator to help this or will it cause more problems?

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

my six string looses a few cents when A pedal is pushed but compensators are never used there that i know of. I have a compensator that raises string 7 when B pedal is pressed. So when i lower my E-Eb (compensator unactivated) the seventh strng is tuned to the B maj chord (strngs 8,7,5). When A and B pedals down (comp activated) 7th strngs in tune to A6 chrd and Dmaj 7 (strngs 9,7,6,5).
but none of this is about cab drop.

Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

I don't understand why you have compensators on the lowers, with that much drop in pitch..I would put a compensater on that 6th string to bring it up...You could add it to your A pedal, and if it drops very much while using the E to F change,,add one to that too,,since sometimes you are using that lever without the A pedal..Of course this depends a lot on how you are tuning your steel..It isn't like one size fits all.....Carson

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Don't know what brand guitar you have, but it sounds like the lower compensators you describe are over return compensators to deal with hysteresis.

I use a compensator like you describe for the 6th string detuning with A pedal. Basically just requires a rod. You can probably slave off the existing bellcrank hole closest to the body. Run the pull rod from an available raise hole in the 6th string raise changer finger to a bellcrank on the A pedal cross shaft. It only takes a small amount of pull to true up that change. I like that it helps the A pedal b/c# and kl F raise combination to be more in tune as well.

It depends on the individual guitar how much detuning occurs. Whether or not it requires attention depends on the player. Generally, I say if it's severe enough to be annoyingly audible, add the comp.

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I wonder why.

richard burton · From: Britain

Ben,
Are you sure they are compensator rods?

With them being on the lowers, they could be split-tuning rods.

Whatever, if the sixth is detuning that much, you need to seriously consider putting a wound string on there, or getting rid of the steel.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

The interval G# to F# is a 2nd.. the way I see it anyway...Carson....

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

My guitar is an all pull of course. The drop on the 6th string is definately audible. And I watch it on my peterson tuner and really shows up. My handheld boss tuner shows that it is going about 8 or 9 cents flat when pressing the A pedal. I plan to add a compensator unless it will tend to cause other problems.

I'm OK at the art of tuning, but the compensators, I have always avoided ajusting until now. However I am pretty good with mechanics and I think I can get good enough to tune a psg with a little practice. It's just the time. I dont have too much time to spare to work on it which is why I had originally paid to have my guitar worked on. But now I have to decided to bite the bullet and learn this skill so I can do it myself for now on. I am just wanting everyone's opinion so I don't make a mistake.

If anyone knows a good detailed method to go about tuning both e9 and c6, then I'd be gratelful to get it. Thanks in advance.

I may give the guy I bought it from a call as well. It was in tune so good that it almost played itself when I first bought it. This guy definatley was extremely skilled underneath a psg. He was quite a player too!

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

Good points Jerry. Especially regarding travel. I definatly need to make sure that the travel on the other pulls are not affected. I remember running into this problem when I use to tune my old Marlen.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

"Compensator" means a lot of different things. You are considering adding a pull to the A pedal so that it raises the 6th string a few cents. The problem with that is that it does nothing to "compensate" the drop of the 6th string if that 6th string is already raised to A or A#. And that drop from A or A# is at least as unpleasant as the drop from G#.
The only solution I can imagine under the guitar would be to leave the 6th string normally lowered 8 or 9 cents, and let the A pedal release that lower.
This would not help the drop of 6 when it is already lowered to G or F3, so you would have to use another small raise on the A pedal as well to fix that.
It is definitely easier to just use a wound string. Of course, that causes another problem of extra drop on the 5th string etc when you mash the B pedal. But it's usually the best answer IMO.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I don't see the A pedal compensator affecting the raised note of either the 5th or 6th string. The G# to A pedaled note is going to be raised more than what the compensator is moving it anyhow. Perhaps I'm missing something.

I have been using the aforementioned compensator as described in my earlier post since the mid-90's with excellent results. Applied to Derby, Mullen and ZumSteel guitars with similar results.

Although the detuning on those guitars is minimal and considerably less than described by Ben on his guitar, I considered the effect as undesirable. This addition corrected the condition without otherwise affecting any other tuning stability. YMMV.

It's a simple 15 minute procedure costing probably 15 bucks or less, depending if you have to use an additional bellcrank. If it doesn't perform as desired, you can always remove it. Possibly even use the parts for another pull somewhere else.

This detuning is a common problem when using a plain string to a more or less degree depending on your guitar. As Earnest and Richard infer, it's less of a problem when using a wound string , it's true. But if you want to accomplish some of the current changes you are hearing, a plain string is necessary.

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

I just noticed that its even worse by pressing the C pedal. I can still play around this issue but it would just be so nice to have most of this detuning fixed.

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

I found this interesting post about Paul Franklin's guitars by Paul himself.

Dickie Whitley

From: Stantonsburg, North Carolina, USA
posted 16 May 2006 03:46 PM profile send email edit
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I didn't want to appear like I was hijacking the keyed/keyless thread, but I was wondering if you could tell me the strings that you use compensators on (E9th and C6th). Thanks for your time and effort on this.

Franklin posted 16 May 2006 08:19 PM

Glad to. On my guitars almost every string that raises and lowers has one. E9th: strings 1,2,4,5,6,8,10
C6th: strings 2,3,5,10

Paul

or just click on this link to view the post

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/012685.html[/url]

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Generally, detuning is more severe on pedals as they move toward the center of the guitar. If you have severe detuning issues with more than one pedal, then you probably need to have a qualified tech take a look at it or perhaps call or visit the builder of your guitar. I think this is a different situation than first I thought. I wouldn't think adding multiple compensators would be a good idea, at least until the cause of your symptoms is found.

This is not normal for most name brand instruments. I hope my comments and suggestions haven't added to your frustration and confusion and that you get your guitar working like it should be in short order.

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

Just to be clear. I dont think this is as severe as some of you may have interpreted. Believe me, this is a good guitar. It just needs tweeking in, thats all. But nonetheless the detuning shows on the tuner and I can hear it when I listen.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Ben, the compensators you have are lower return compensators. Very necessary on your brand of guitar.

The thing that's bugging you now is cabinet drop. Yours is a little excessive. But all PSG's have it. Emmons offers a counterforce to correct it. Zum has ACS. Adjustable Changer Support. And the there's the old extra pull rod method.

However most of us compensate for it in the way we tune. Like I wrote. The problem has been around forever. I do think it's great the Zum has chosen to make ACS standard on all their non Hybrid models.

Just curious.How much does string 4 drop when A and B pedals are pressed? Oh, it just came to me. I think you're now raising your 8th string a full step along with your normal C pedal load? This will cause serious cabinet drop on any guitar that doesn't have an apparatus to address cabinet drop. Hope this helps.
Smile

bb

Franklin · Posted 11 Jul 2010 2:22 am

Ben,

I was talking about return compensators. A return compensator deals with a string that is both raised and lowered. After the lower is activated it returns sharp from where it was after the raise was released. This problem exists until some sort of counterforce is applied. The returning sharp problem will vary from guitar to guitar and from brand to brand...Some need it more, some less...Because the return compensator completely resolves this issue, I have them installed on all strings that raise and lower. I love, not having to split the difference at the keyhead, because a string is returning incorrectly to pitch after it is lowered........My compensators are there, if I need them....how often I activate them depends on the strings, which can vary, set to set.

Folks will come down on all sides of this issue......Cabinet drop drives some guys crazy. It really bothers me when the lowers return a tad sharp to the raise.....Some players are comfortable with splitting the differences at the key head. I'm not comfortable with that solution. I'm addicted to the exact resolve. I even had my father put return compensators on my old 70's PP Emmons.

If this is what you have on your guitar, learn the correct way to tune them....I think a lot of players shy away from this option because tuning them is a little confusing at first.

When putting on a new set of strings, first back off the return compensator. Tune it open, than tune the raise, it should come back to pitch.....Than proceed to tune the lower, when, or if, depending on the string, it returns sharp to pitch, you should lower the string again and start slowly activating the nylon tuner designated to the return compensator.....Do this slowly and incrementally, a quarter turn at a time is almost too much.....Now release the lower to see if the string is returning closer to pitch......If its still sharp, continue repeating this slow process until it returns perfectly, and it will...

Be careful not to over tune the compensator. As it gets closer to being perfect to pitch barely nudge the tuner until its returning exactly to pitch.....The good thing about this tedious tuning process, when it is tuned correctly, the compensators tuning generally lasts the life of the string..... Although you will have to tune the raises and lowers each time you play, the compensators generally do not have to be touched......Sometimes compensators don't have to be retuned for the life of many sets of strings.

Paul

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

I'm dense, that's a given, but gentlemen a picture, for this old boy, would be worth a thousand words. Never was to good at them word picture problems. Just hoping...

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

Paul

It great to hear this from you. Thanks for taking the time to respond to this post. I really appreciate it. Do you have any compensators that are not return compensators on your guitars. My 6th string drops about 6 or 7 cents when pushing the A pedal down and I was thinking of adding a compensator to it. At first it looked like it was 8 or 9 cents but after looking closely its not as bad as I originally thought. But it still drops nonetheless. I guess the question is, what is the tolerable amount of drop on this string? Would you bother adding a compensator to it?

Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

On my last post on this subject I got distracted and had to cut it short...What Paul Franklin said makes a whole lot of sense...Paul,,I have noticed that same thing for a long time...I think you have a great idea there,,and this is something that should be an option on a pedal steel..The only thing is,,some people who are not too mechanically inclined might get things all out of whack,,by twisting and turning on things that they don't really understand..I guess it would have to depend on the person...In my earlier post about the interval G# to F#,,I was going to say that I tune that interval nearly the same,,so a compensator on the 6th and 3rd strings would work for me....Regards,,,Carson

Doug Palmer · From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

Ben, where are you NC? What brand is your guitar? I'm in Greensboro, center part of the state. I'd be happy to look at it for you no charge.

Doug Palmer
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Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

I appreciate it but I'm way over hear almost to the coast. About 3.5 hrs from you. Clyde mattocks is over here in Kinston. When I get some time off, I may give him a call. My job is on the road and I stay gone most of the time until the weekend. and then I play catch up doing all the chores around the house. I am going to win the lottery soon though so i don't have to work. Very Happy

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I've owned 3 wonderful Franklin PSG's since 1980 and so far as I can recall, it was always a standard procedure to have return-compensators on the 4th & 8th (E)-strings of all E9 necks. I always ordered my Franklin Guitars with return-compensators on all strings that both Raised and Lowered, on both necks. That way I knew they were there if I needed them. They always worked very well for me!
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John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

What does a return compensator look like? If someone could post a clear photo, that would be helpful.
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