Harmonics on different guitars???

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

It's been discussed on how, when etc to do harmonics..

But I don't remember reading about the difficulty, or ease on different pedal steels.Some steels that I have played are very easy, some are almost impossible to get a clear sound. I know it's partly me, but I'm curious about your take on this...is it the scale length, the guitar, or what. If this has been discussed, please link me to it Thanks...Bill
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Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
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James Maxwell · From: Ohio, USA

A longer scale length definitely makes it easier

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Bill,Good topic.The guitar I owned before my Desert Rose guitars was very hard to get harmonics on,I couldn't believe how hard I had to pluck the string it just didn't speak the way I like it to.One time forumite Jon Hyde was visiting me and we were doing a harmonic test of sorts on my Desert Rose and they just jump out of my guitar,I call that the guitar being alive.I'm not sure what makes some guitars dead and others alive harmonically I would bet Paul Franklin could explain it. Winking

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Josh Yenne · From: Sonoma California

on my new guitar I have a single coil and it is MUCH harder to get harmonics on it than it was with the bucker I used to have...

richard burton · From: Britain

In theory, a string can be tensioned across any two points, eg, the sides of a wheelbarrow, and the harmonics of the string will still be found at the divisible nodes.

Paul Crawford · From: Orlando, Fl

I don't know if different guitars won't make harmonics but I'm certain that different guitars do take different techniques.

My lap steels all seem very easy compared to the pedal steels. The P/P always seems easier than the Zum which takes a more precise touch.

It's just one of the factors that give each of the guitars its own personality. I love all of my children but they all take and give their own special touch.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

Generally speaking,,the longer the speaking length of a string,, the better the harmonics...This is part of what gives grand pianos their huge sound... The better the harmonics (partials) the better the sound...This is what gives a good steel guitar that "bell tone" that so many seek..You have to remember that the harmonics take place naturally,,even though you may not be aware of them..They are in every fundamental tone...If you listen carefully,,you will be to hear them while your are playing a fundamental tone...Try this: Play your 9th string D and see if can hear the D one octave above..You should be able to hear it faintly in the background...Try not listening to the fundamental and just concentrate on the harmonic..You will hear it just before the sound starts to trail off..It's just part of the Physics of a vibrating string...Why some steels produce these harmonics better than others is probably due to a lot of different factors,,,but string length would probably be the biggest one...Carson....

Barry Hyman · From: upstate New York, USA

It has to do with the length of the string (yes, longer is better), material of string (stainless winding might be brighter-sounding than nickel), the type of pickup (normally single coils get better harmonics than humbuckers), what stops the string at both ends (as Bent said), the tone setting on the psg and on the amp and on any effects (boosted treble and distortion both make harmonics more audible), the type of volume pedal (many pot pedals cut the highs when not fully depressed), and of course the player's technique. Probably the make and material of the steel is less important than the rest of these factors, but the ability of the steel to resonate at high frequencies has to be at least a small part of the puzzle.

The most important factor is the distance between the pick and the mute. I use the side of my thumb to mute on the node and then pick about three inches to the right of that. The closer the mute is to the pick, the weaker the harmonic.
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I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

While the logic of your thinking makes sense and sounds reasonable......

I can't help but point to the years of superlative playing, including harmonics and chimes, finger and palm, that JERRY BYRD played and almost always on a short scale guitar. Seldom ever did he hit a clinker! (if EVER!)

His records are here to substantiate my comment.

What's to be said about that?

Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

Ray,,the shorter the scale, the more precise you would have to be..If you will read my post ,,I said "generally speaking".. The player has a lot to do with it, and Jerry Byrd was an expert...Carson

Ethan Shaw · From: Texas, USA

My sho-bud is easy to chime on, my fender is hard. I really think the difference between these two is that the fender has a more "scooped" pickup response. The sho-bud has a lot more high-mids to it, which seem to make the chimes ring a lot easier. Also, if I use the coil tap on the bud pickups, it makes it harder to chime.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

I'll chime in again.My Desert Rose has Bill lawrence humbucking pickups on it,I can play both finger and palm harmonics very easily on it...I've been playing a long time and know how to do that sort of thang,I would guess it's something in the construction of the guitar,Changer?fingers? Winking

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Do your harmonics testing without plugging in the guitar and you will find that electronics have very little if anything at all to do with it.

I have found that in general guitars that had stronger harmonics, both open and with the bar, also had more stable basic resonating capabilities. Strum your unplugged guitar open right across the strings. Listen to how long it takes for the decaying overtones to start to cascade up. The stable guitars do not cascade up. Harmonics are easy to play loud and clear on stable guitars. Those steels tend to sound way better than other steels also.
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Bob

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Well, the reason that different categories of instruments sound different when playing the same note is because they emphasize differing proportions of the upper harmonics along with the base fundamental tone. It holds to reason that different steels are going to have that same quality, to a lesser extent. So playing an octave harmonic will be easier or harder, depending on what proportion of that octave harmonic is present to begin with.

It would also be likely that certain frequencies will work better, because no wood and aluminum box is likely to be absolutely "flat" in response - so harmonics may work better in certain keys on one guitar, other keys on another. Obviously pickups are pre-selecting certain frequencies that they let through more of too. Without having any intention to do so, I'd bet that if you got in there with the application of a little fanatic OCD-ism, a graphic or parametric EQ could probably be used to add or notch out certain areas of harmonics. Playing really loud always helps everything! Mr. Green

Ethan Shaw · From: Texas, USA

Actually, I believe electronics have a lot to do with it. Playing through a little tube amp (like a pro jr.) makes it way easier to play harmonics. I believe that's because of low-powered tube amps' natural compression and voicing characteristics. I can chime through a big peavey just fine, but you have to be dead-on in technique. A low-powered, slightly overdriven tube amp gives a lot more wiggle room.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There are at least 3 different issues here:

1. How difficult, technique-wise, is it to get harmonics on a particular guitar.

2. Once a harmonic is sounded properly, how loud is it relative to the fundamental and how long does it sustain.

3. How do the electronics amplify a harmonic relative to the fundamental.

On #1, I suppose scale length may have something to do with it. But the difference between 'long-scale' vs. 'short-scale' is typically 24.25" vs 24.00" - a quarter of an inch. I suppose it might have some influence on how easy it is to accurately find the harmonic location, but a quarter inch is only about 1% of the 24" scale length, which means that distance between fret-markers is only about 1% different. 1% of that very small distance isn't much and I don't see why that can't be overcome with training. I have equal difficulty getting good harmonics on either length, I'm working on it. Wink

I honestly doubt that a quarter-inch scale difference length has much to do with #2. Maybe Ed Packard has something to say about that, I could be wrong - experiment trumps theory every time. However, anything that reduces string end-point contact below "perfectly solid" would undoubtedly reduce the harmonics. By nature, if one does the mechanical vibration analysis of such a system, the harmonic series frequencies are lower in amplitude and less stable than the fundamental anyway. I think harmonics are more susceptible to any mechanical imperfections that would let its energy transfer elsewhere. If the changer finger, nut rollers, or anything in the line of fire can vibrate, the string can vibrate with it and suck energy. Then the material to which the string mechanisms are connected may have an effect. I always marvel at how those Bakelite lap steels sustain and pull harmonics - no changer, rock-solid bridge, incredibly dense and hard body material.

On #3 - of course electronics have nothing to do with an instrument's inherent harmonic ability. But anything that adds compression tends to pull up weak signals relative to strong ones. Since harmonics are generally weaker than the fundamental, compression can affect the harmonic/fundamental amplitude ratio coming out of the amp. There are a lot of possible sources for compression - tube compression/distortion, electronic compressors, and so on. In addition, when an amp is cranked up enough to form a feedback loop between the guitar and the amp, if the gain of that feedback loop is high enough, it can definitely affect how long a harmonic can be sustained, regardless of how it's obtained - pick harmonics, chiming, whatever. There was a reason Jimi cranked up his Marshalls - that feedback was an important part of his style, and that included harmonics.

I think these basic physical arguments apply to any stringed instrument.

Paul Crawford · From: Orlando, Fl

I think Bob may be on to something. I've got an old Deluxe 8 that will chime with little or no help on my part, plugged in or not. I usually play it unplugged sitting in front of the TV and its harmonics are as loud and clear as a normally picked note. It's 22" scale doesn't bother it at all.

I wish I was as good as it is.

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

When I played a D-10 keyed Sho-Bud, I noticed harmonics flew off the strings.

Now that I'm playing a keyless U-12 Williams, I find getting long-lasting harmonics is a big chore. They are there, but my precision has to be dead-on.
The S-B with it's longer string lengths was much more forgiving.

IMHO.
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Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Chip, I always thought that most, perhaps not all - see this thread - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1172061 - Sho Buds had the 24" so-called "short" scale length. I know my '72 6139 definitely had a 24" scale.

Is the Williams scale length shorter than that? Erv Niehaus' response on this thread - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1107746 - says Williams is "long" scale, 24.25". I always took Erv to be one of the forum resident experts on Williams. Maybe a keyless is different.

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Dave, quickly, without going to your links.

I had a S-B ProIII (1977). I don't have a clue what the scale, NOW, would be.

And, UH, once again? Where do you measure from to determine the scale length? I know I could do this now on the Williams. But, aren't we talking a 1/4" difference most of the time? This scale length stuff has been going on for years, here, and I still don't GET IT.

Dave, my thinking is not the scale length. It's the actual LENGTH of the string itself. Something longer in length vibrates and sustains for a longer period of time than something shorter in length.

I think most unscientific folks would acknowledge this, at least.
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Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer.

Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

Chip,, you are absolutely right as far as I'm concerned...As Bent Rommes said too,,the contact points would make a difference...Down pressure on the bridge (changer) and nut would play a role in it too, as well as materials used...Many good posts on this subject so far..

Piano builders have know for many years that the better the harmonics,,the better the piano will sound..This is why they strive to set the hammers so they will strike the strings at specific point to bring out the loudest and clearest harmonics..The shorter the strings,,the less the sustain,,which is why a piano doesn't need dampers on the upper end...We have to take into consieration the size of the music wire in relation to the note and length of the scale..The people at Steinway have uncovered many secrets in this field,,and have developed a piano that sounds like no other (at least not to my ears)..

I started a thread a while back called "enhancing the harmonics" but it never really got off the ground..I still believe that if someone could build a steel,,and pay close attention to this aspect of the instrument,,then that person(s) could create a beautiful sounding instrument...Regards,,,Carson

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Well, here's my take.....

The "scale length" refers to the speaking length of the string. That's the measured distance from the top center of the changer finger, to the top center of the roller nut. This is the part of the string's length who's vibrations are "seen" by the pickup.

When a harmonic is played at the 12th fret, you have effectively divided the strings speaking length in half...similar to playing the note at the 12th fret. But, because you touch the string to produce the harmonic, instead of fretting the note, the higher overtones are usually more predominant...thus the "chimey" tone.

Harmonics can be greatly affected by both the uniformity, and the cleanliness, of the string. Anything that causes the string to be non-uniform, throughout it's speaking length, will interfere with these harmonics. For instance, old, dirty, strings won't vibrate uniformly because of uneven distribution of grime and corrosion. Remember how dirty strings sound dull and lifeless? That's caused by the lack of harmonic overtones.

I've played outdoor gigs with brand new strings and couldn't get any harmonics on the first song because of sweat drops on the strings.

I don't discount Dave M's theory at all, but rather, I see the possibility that more factors may be at play when it comes to poor harmonic response.
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Best regards,
Mike

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