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Topic: bearings for the push pull |
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 1:08 pm |
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| who's added /installed bearings for their P/P cross shafts? how were the results? Generally i like the feel on my 72 fat back except for B pedal and P8. I added a compensator on B pedal which may have thrown it off a bit. Maybe bearings would be an improvement... |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 2:27 pm
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Bearings are not the solution for cabinet drop.
If the sixth string is problematic, use a .022 wound, and your problems will be over. |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 2:51 pm
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| Richard, the compensator on pedal B is not for cab drop. I have no cab drop problem. Its a pedal 'feel' thing. just not as smooth and sure as the other pedals and as i know it should and could be. ive been micro studying this thing and cannot find the source. it has that feeling as though the positive stop screw on the pedal shaft is not adjusted just right...but it is and there's a squeeky friction kinda thing as the pedal bottoms out and if your not careful the sixth string wont true up. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 3:00 pm
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There is a spring that is compressed against the end of the crossrod. That may be causing the "squeeky friction kinda thing" you are experiencing. I had that problem with a push/pull I owned years ago. In addition to the friction I was feeling, I could also hear a click, just before the pedal would bottom out. I finally found out where the sound was coming from. I carefully moved the crossrod out of the hole and the spring shot across the room. I didn't even know there was a spring in there, until that happened. I polished both ends of the spring, lubricated it well, and pushed it back in the hole. End of that problem.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 4:07 pm
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I rebuilt a p/p earlier this year. I added the bearings and polished the cross-shaft ends where they fit into the aprons.
Major improvement pedal/knee lever ease. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 4:21 pm
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| I think I got this from Clem's P/P methodology book. You can cut down that spring at the end of the cross-shaft and put in a 1/8" ball bearing. If you cut the spring just enough there will be very little pressure, if any, on the shaft and it will turn very nicely. You should also be sure the block the shaft rides in is aligned properly, as well as that the bushing on the other side is aligned and not worn. I've also had nice results putting bushings in the knee lever brackets. They can wear and get a bit sloppy. |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 5:14 pm
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terrific information. never knew about that spring thing. I'll bet the bushing is worn thats the general area wear the squeek's coming from. this is more than likely whats going on.
Peter, you know a source for Clems' PP methodology book?
bearings sound like the ticket. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2010 7:02 pm
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My first steel was an Emmons PP. I ended up putting roller skate bearings in the first two floor pedal cross-shaft ends and played it that way for many years.
The bearings were noticable smoother than the bushings but not really necessary.
The PP played great with new bushings, a clean and re-lubs and polished springs on the ends. The bearings were just an experiment. I bought an expensive Forstner drill bit just to make the holes for the bearings. The bearings cost $1.00 apiece.
Many bearing companies advised against me installing the bearings as they swore that the bearings would develop flat spots quickly. This was supposedly due to the limited degrees of rotation of the shaft and all the load is placed on just a few of the balls inside the bearings.
Greg |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2010 8:36 am
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I would NEVER drill out a p/p cabinet to install ball bearings on the cross shafts.
Ball bearings were designed for shafts with a lot of rotation.
There is a place for bronze bushings and the cross shafts on a p/p is just such a place.
The only reason for that single ball on the end of the cross shaft spring is to help keep the cross shaft pushed up against the cabinet on the front side where the pedal rods are located. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 5 Jul 2010 4:41 am
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Ball bearings were designed for shafts with continuous rotation. Delrin would be my first choice, if anything other than original.
BF
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2010 7:38 am
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| ok...ball bearings are out. and replacing metal parts to whatever seems to me going in the wrong direction...its just a bushing..but still. I see there are a cool selection of bronze bushing types...grooved grease,oil or graphite filled etc. any recomendations? What were/are the originals anyway nongrooved self lubricating? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2010 7:51 am
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Originals are just plain brass bushings, nothing exotic or fancy. I like to use a little white grease on the ends when I install the cross shafts and that has served me well for many years.
If it isn't broke--why fix it?  |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2010 10:39 am
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to save down time on my only steel, anyone know the exact bushing size/dimension to buy before i remove the shaft? thanks  |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 5 Jul 2010 11:58 am
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There are only bushings in the front apron. The cross-shafts rest in the aluminum plates mounted to the back apron. (The front bushings, as I understand it, are just grommets for Kluson bass tuners).
I'd recommend that you pull out the cross-shaft and inspect the bushings. The ones on my '78 were fine when I rebuilt my P/P last year. Just clean everything up. I polished the ends of the cross-shafts and lubed both ends w/ moly or lithium grease. I also did the short spring/bearing mod at the back apron.
When you reassemble the cross shaft in the aprons, it should turn freely by hand. If not, find out what is binding.
Then re-rod, balance your changes and it should play well. My P/P is just about as easy to play a my Zum. |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2010 7:16 pm
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just removed shaft cleaned polished lubed and reassembled. much better. bushing seemed to be ok.
these things do require periodic maintenance but they DO dial in and play nice and solid.
Tony, re the BACK apron short spring/bearing mod...is this something covered in the Clem Schmitz book?
rather than the shaft resting on the aluminum piece screwed to the back apron, you install a bearing there and shorten the spring? just curious.. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 6 Jul 2010 5:08 pm
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| Steven Welborn wrote: |
just removed shaft cleaned polished lubed and reassembled. much better. bushing seemed to be ok.
these things do require periodic maintenance but they DO dial in and play nice and solid.
Tony, re the BACK apron short spring/bearing mod...is this something covered in the Clem Schmitz book?
rather than the shaft resting on the aluminum piece screwed to the back apron, you install a bearing there and shorten the spring? just curious.. |
I cut down the spring such that the total length of the bearing + spring was equal to the original length on the uncut spring, then placed the bearing between the spring and cross-shaft end after lubing it. The cross-shaft still rotates in the aluminum apron bracket.
I guess the theory is that the surface area contacted by the cross shaft end is less, so friction is less. I'm not convinced it actually does all that much, and just tried the bearings out of curiosity. On the other hand, my guitar played like a truck before the rebuild and now plays great.....so who knows? |
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