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Topic: Designing a new PSG: Excel style NYLON tuner pegs? |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 25 Jun 2010 10:34 am |
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I am in the process of drawing the final concept plans to prototype a new PSG.
I WILL discuss the base concept later.
I will be posting questions and ask for help now and then.
After having discussed Tuner Keys (tuning machines) extensively) I'd like to look at a better option to the nylon tuners commonly used on ALL PULL PSG's.
Excel, on their newer PSG, uses a very interesting alternative design. Their nylon tuners are round shaped on the exterior instead the usual hexagon finish found on all others. Excel's INSIDE bore is a hexagon and a small Allen key will fit INTO in (instead of around the nylon tuner) to tune. The obvious advantage is space saving which Excel then converts into more pulls per string as the nylon tuner pegs can now almost touch each other and NO extra space is needed for the tuning wrench.
This is THE design I would like to use.
The question is, where to find them or something similar without going thru custom manufacturing?
Do any of you know of a company which specializes in small nylon/delron parts besides smallparts.com where they call a similar item but metal item "hex hole sleeve"?
Kind'a like that just in Nylon or similar:
Thanks! ... J-D. |
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bob Ousby
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2010 8:37 pm
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| JD...I have an Excel S10. Contact Scotty's Music for those "inside hex" nylon tuners. I've had to replace several due to cracking. The thin wall design is the weakest link. I actually had one strip out while using the proper allen wrench. I like the traditional nylon "outside hex" much better...Bob |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Jun 2010 9:04 pm
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JD...just off the top of my head...could you use the metal inside hex's pictured and if you have a concern about noise, use a nylon spacer between the nut and the finger?
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Jun 2010 11:47 pm
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I have an Excel D-10. I cracked one tuning nut, but I've never had any problem with the others. I think it's a really good design, and I'm going to use something similar on the guitar I'm building. But a slightly thicker (or stronger) wall might work a bit better to avoid cracking.
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 26 Jun 2010 2:30 pm
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I am sorry to hear already two players on here had issues with cracked "inside hex" tuner pegs. I however suspect that's more of a choice of material issue than the thin wall only. Certainly, I thicker wall is stronger, but really, the effort on tuner pegs is not soooo immense. Many material sold as "nylon" are actually something else.
Bent: The advantage of a synthetic tuner peg is the "self locking" effect of these materials on the pull rod's thread. Additionally, I haven't inspected Excel's pegs thoroughly enough to be able to tell, but I would suspect that the pegs are not threaded originally and that the rod just cuts the thread into the hex-walls... At least, that how I would do it.
So, the metal sleeves would have to be threaded and then they would lack the "self locking" behavior and loosen up... resulting in loss of tuning.
The only thing is that I could stick the metal hex sleeves on a drilled hexagonal nylon shaft... but that would again get us back to an increased size and more unnecessary parts.
The whole tuner peg issue may need to be revisited anyways. We so often take details like these for "given".
I won't approach Scotty to "get" some of Excel's part for my guitar projects unless I'd get permission from Mr. Fuji... and if I'd get his approval, I might just get the parts from him. But that just complicates things... I am not inclined to believe that he actually cranks out his own tuner pegs... Chinese trading web sites are FULL with small parts suppliers... I probably just got to find the right search words to match how they list it. There must be millions of these things in all sizes somewhere in between rice fields.
I found several suppliers for the standard hex tuner pegs as found on most PSG's for fractions of an US CENT a piece... minimal order 30'000 pieces  ... still just a hand full of US Dollars!
... J-D. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2010 2:56 pm
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J-D.
You remember the way old R&B Shobuds were built? The changer end of the rod was metal, and affixed to the pull rod. You turned that with a wrench, but the adjustment was done with the threaded barrels. Perhaps you could design a bellcrank that has a Delrin insert that would work the same way. Then you could use metal rod ends that wouldn't break. They could be a very small outside diameter, and still use an Allen wrench for adjustments. Kinda a wacky idea, I suppose,,,,
The company I worked for did not tap a thread into the nylon tuners. The rod end cut the threads, as you mentioned.
JB |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2010 3:55 pm Tuner
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J.D., I dont know the wall thickness of those metal sleeves but could you press a regular 3/16 OD nylon hex tuner into a sleeve with a 3/16 hex bore leaveing enough room at one end to fit a hex wrench into ??? I dont think you will crack that. Martin.
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Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 27 Jun 2010 12:28 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
| I am sorry to hear already two players on here had issues with cracked "inside hex" tuner pegs. I however suspect that's more of a choice of material issue than the thin wall only. Certainly, I thicker wall is stronger, but really, the effort on tuner pegs is not soooo immense. Many material sold as "nylon" are actually something else. |
Cracking a nut every year or so isn't a big deal. I've got a bunch of extras in case it happens. And the cracked one didn't crack all the way through and it still works fine. I just changed it because it could be unreliable...don't want to lose a pull during a gig. The advantage of the inside hex tuners is that the wrench never touches the other tuners besides the one you're turning, and they seem to stay in tune better. This is important on a 5R/3L changer, where the holes are fairly close together. The advantages of this design outweigh the disadvantages (possibly cracking a nut occasionally).
| J D Sauser wrote: |
I won't approach Scotty to "get" some of Excel's part for my guitar projects unless I'd get permission from Mr. Fuji... and if I'd get his approval, I might just get the parts from him.
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Don't use Excel parts. They work great on an Excel, but they use non-standard sizes, such as for rod diameters, and metric threads. Also, the parts are very expensive...the tuning nuts are $2.00 each. You can make the parts (or get them made) for a lot cheaper.
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2010 6:34 am
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| I too have had problems with stripping Excel tuner nuts and they can be quite a challenge to remove once that has happened. Bent's suggestion of the nylon spacer and the metal tuning nut broached inside is a good one and I'm sure there are ways around having it quasi-self locking- like using one of the milder thread locking compounds- that shouldn't be a big challenge. If you are designing this from scratch why don't you just design the changer so that you could have the desired number of raise and lowers with standard pull nuts? |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 27 Jun 2010 12:00 pm I Can Help Find Parts In Beijing.
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| JD, I'll be back in Beijing August 5th and will be glad to look for what you need if you supply me with a couple examples. Please end me an email and I'll give you my USA address. stevet |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 28 Jun 2010 3:57 pm Re: I Can Help Find Parts In Beijing.
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| John Billings wrote: |
J-D.
You remember the way old R&B Shobuds were built? The changer end of the rod was metal, and affixed to the pull rod. You turned that with a wrench, but the adjustment was done with the threaded barrels. Perhaps you could design a bellcrank that has a Delrin insert that would work the same way. Then you could use metal rod ends that wouldn't break. They could be a very small outside diameter, and still use an Allen wrench for adjustments. Kinda a wacky idea, I suppose,,,,
The company I worked for did not tap a thread into the nylon tuners. The rod end cut the threads, as you mentioned.
JB |
Yes, JB... like the Sierras later on.
It's neat and all, but it mandates an always straight rod (as the rod rotates to tune in and out) -the one reason why other builder may not have picked up on that idea.
The Sierra is very roomy underneath as it virtually has not wood besides the neck, so they do have room to work their rods nicely. Well, EVERYBODY tries to have straight rods, and so do I. But it's different when you HAVE to keep'em all straight.
| Martin Weenick wrote: |
| J.D., I dont know the wall thickness of those metal sleeves but could you press a regular 3/16 OD nylon hex tuner into a sleeve with a 3/16 hex bore leaveing enough room at one end to fit a hex wrench into ??? I dont think you will crack that. Martin. |
Well, the IDEA is to keep everything as small as possible, so to be able to accommodate as many pulls as possible. I'd like to see 4R/3L or even 4R/4L if in any way possible without making the guitar thicker or trying to run rods underneath the cross shafts (as the newer Excels are).
With the system I am trying to implement, I am fighting for space from the beginning. I don't want to do short cuts. So, If I can safe space, space which is only needed because "we" use a wrench which requires more clearance in between the tuning pegs... I'll gladly take it.
| Ryan Barwin wrote: |
| Don't use Excel parts. They work great on an Excel, but they use non-standard sizes, such as for rod diameters, and metric threads. Also, the parts are very expensive...the tuning nuts are $2.00 each. You can make the parts (or get them made) for a lot cheaper. |
I am not seeking to use Excel part. Not even THEIR tuning nuts. I am convinced that these inside hex sleeves are made by the millions in china somewhere... and in many sizes.
I must confess thou, I am a Metric guy myself.
But I will try to keep only machined dimensions metric, but shafts and most fasteners SAE.
| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| I too have had problems with stripping Excel tuner nuts and they can be quite a challenge to remove once that has happened. Bent's suggestion of the nylon spacer and the metal tuning nut broached inside is a good one and I'm sure there are ways around having it quasi-self locking- like using one of the milder thread locking compounds- that shouldn't be a big challenge. If you are designing this from scratch why don't you just design the changer so that you could have the desired number of raise and lowers with standard pull nuts? |
Or, a little pressed in nylon insert which would give it the self threading-self locking feature maybe? It's just a lot of hassle for a tuning peg.
| steve takacs wrote: |
| JD, I'll be back in Beijing August 5th and will be glad to look for what you need if you supply me with a couple examples. Please end me an email and I'll give you my USA address. stevet |
Actually Steve, I'd have a much bigger mission for you. 
Thanks to all! Keep'em coming.
... J-D. |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 28 Jun 2010 5:20 pm
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| JD, hmmmm this is intriguing indeed. I'll be waiting for my secret mission. stevet |
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Joseph Meditz
From:
Sierra Vista, AZ
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Posted 28 Jun 2010 8:39 pm
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| Quote: |
... Additionally, I haven't inspected Excel's pegs thoroughly enough to be able to tell, but I would suspect that the pegs are not threaded originally and that the rod just cuts the thread into the hex-walls... At least, that how I would do it.
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I just measured the I.D. of the hex end and the threaded end. The I.D. of the hex end is 0.105". The I.D. of the threaded end is 0.087". Hence, my guess is that they are made by drilling a tap hole clear though the nylon nut and then tapping one side and broaching the hex on the other.
Drilling a hole and then forcing the threaded rod through is a rather red neck way of doing things in my view and not very Japanese.
Btw, it takes very little effort to turn the nuts with the allen wrench, and they do hold very well.
And I might add that at the bell crank end the rod is fastened to a pin that goes across a clevis bell crank. It makes for very smooth and quiet action. You can adjust the play so that all the nylon nuts stick out by the same amount. More importantly, the thread penetration can be adjusted for optimal performance. One once slipped on me as I overtightend it. I thought I stripped it. The cause was a loose lever screw. Once I fixed that the nut was OK and not stripped.
Lastly, I prefer this to a rod bent at an ell at the end which has a twisting moment when pulled.
Joe |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 2:09 am
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I have no dog in this hunt but as a tinkerer I would ask...
Premise:
the purpose of the tuning nut is to secure the position against the changer finger to adjust and maintain the proper musical pitch.
Intital design:
Solid nylon material HEX design so it can be adjusted with a small wrench on the O.D.
New design:
Hollow material with HEX design on the I.D. so it can be adjusted with a small wrench from the I.D.
Question:
So here's the question,as a tinkerer, are we modifying the nylon tuner nut to improve the performance of holding a musical note to pitch or are we modifying the intitial design to make life easier for the end user ( using a different tuning wrench ) ? Solid tuner nut vs hollow tuner nut is a dramatic difference in design.
Do physics and stress matter here ?
The primary reason, my way of thinking, that a nylon nut is used is so that it never strips the rod which would happen in a NY minute if the tuner nut was any kind of metal . The physical strength of the nylon nut comes from being solid, no ?
t for Tinkerer
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 11:54 am
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Tony, We are modifying the nut so that it can be skinnier and thereby prevent the wrench to take up somuch room. Thereby the overall width of the changer can be a bit narrower.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 12:44 pm
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Ok, thanks just asking.
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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