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Topic: Push Pull Lower ?? |
Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 20 Jun 2010 3:46 pm |
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My 8th string lower screw stop seems to be preventing enough travel to the 4th string lower.
I tune the 8th string and then try to tune the 4th.
It backs out with a big gap but never lowers 4 enough.
The raise fingers have 3 adjustment but none on the lowers.
How do you balance multiple lowers?
How do you get more knee lever travel?
thx
bob
Last edited by Bob Snelgrove on 20 Jun 2010 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2010 5:15 pm
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| Sounds like you just need to back off the collar on the eighth string lower rod, so it starts lowering a little later. That will let the fourth string lower farther. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 20 Jun 2010 8:59 pm
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| Jim Smith wrote: |
| Sounds like you just need to back off the collar on the eighth string lower rod, so it starts lowering a little later. That will let the fourth string lower farther. |
Would shock springs make a difference doing the same thing?
bob |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 20 Jun 2010 11:59 pm
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If I understand you correctly, you are approaching the problem backwards. You should always set the lower (or raise) for the string that has the longest travel first. Only after the change for that string has been properly set should you begin to try to adjust or set the other changes on the other strings, for that particular pedal or level.
The 4th string lower takes more travel than the 8th string lower, so the 4th string lower needs to be set first. If you try this and the 4th string still won't lower to pitch, then most likely you don't have enough slack on the 4th string raise, and it's preventing the lower, so you need to back it off a bit. (Then to get the raise to go all the way up to pitch on pedal C you may need to increase the pedal travel a bit.)
I would not put any springs on the 4th string lower. You may want to use a short spring on the 8th string lower, but it's really optional. I have a small spring on 8 lower, and none on 4 lower.
Keep asking questions and all will be made clear. Good luck. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 5:44 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
If I understand you correctly, you are approaching the problem backwards. You should always set the lower (or raise) for the string that has the longest travel first. Only after the change for that string has been properly set should you begin to try to adjust or set the other changes on the other strings, for that particular pedal or level.
The 4th string lower takes more travel than the 8th string lower, so the 4th string lower needs to be set first. If you try this and the 4th string still won't lower to pitch, then most likely you don't have enough slack on the 4th string raise, and it's preventing the lower, so you need to back it off a bit. (Then to get the raise to go all the way up to pitch on pedal C you may need to increase the pedal travel a bit.)
I would not put any springs on the 4th string lower. You may want to use a short spring on the 8th string lower, but it's really optional. I have a small spring on 8 lower, and none on 4 lower.
Keep asking questions and all will be made clear. Good luck. |
I should have said that this started with the 8 lower that would run out of travel. I adjusted a collar that had a little gap (at the changer, I think) and that gave me enough throw on the 8 lower but then the 4 lower wouldn't travel far enough. Quite a juggling act on these buggers 
bob |
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John McGuire
From:
Swansea,Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 7:00 am
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| With my limited experience on working one my 2 p/p the collar by the changer on the lower rod should be next to a spacer. Once I had too much of the lower rod going through spacer and the lowering finger and it would bottom out and the 4th string couldn't lower all the way cause the 8th string would bottom out. Just something to check if you loosend the collar on the lower near the changer. And you do need to set up the 4th string first. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 7:21 am
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| John McGuire wrote: |
| With my limited experience on working one my 2 p/p the collar by the changer on the lower rod should be next to a spacer. Once I had too much of the lower rod going through spacer and the lowering finger and it would bottom out and the 4th string couldn't lower all the way cause the 8th string would bottom out. Just something to check if you loosend the collar on the lower near the changer. And you do need to set up the 4th string first. |
So, if you set the 4 lower travel first, the 8 lower will always have enough travel, or not quite that simple?
bob |
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John McGuire
From:
Swansea,Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 7:57 am
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| Bob it is simple when you get used to it but not that simple. If you moved a collar for string 8 next to the changer and then your problem started with 4th string I would start by reversing what you have done. On the lower rod you should just have enough of the lower rod sticking out to stay in the hole of the lower finger. There should be different size spacers on your lower rods where they go in the changer. The rod can go into the finger hole too far and bottom out. Check what you moved first. Then I would loosen the collars on 4 and 8 and stand the guitar on end changer up. Plug in a tuner and with your finger move the 4th string lower finger until you reach your note. If you can't reach it and you should if the collars are all loose back off the tuning screw on the end plate. Once you have the lower set for 4 do the same on 8. You may want to tune them just a little flat. Then tune your raise like mentioned above. Hope I am not confuseing you more. Again after rereading your post I suspect the 8th string lowere rod is going too far in the changer. That little gap between the collar and finger needs to be there. You probably had just a collar with about a quarter inch or less of space and no spacer. Un do what you did and see if 4 goes back to normal if so leave it and we will go from there. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 8:09 am
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| John McGuire wrote: |
| Bob it is simple when you get used to it but not that simple. If you moved a collar for string 8 next to the changer and then your problem started with 4th string I would start by reversing what you have done. On the lower rod you should just have enough of the lower rod sticking out to stay in the hole of the lower finger. There should be different size spacers on your lower rods where they go in the changer. The rod can go into the finger hole too far and bottom out. Check what you moved first. Then I would loosen the collars on 4 and 8 and stand the guitar on end changer up. Plug in a tuner and with your finger move the 4th string lower finger until you reach your note. If you can't reach it and you should if the collars are all loose back off the tuning screw on the end plate. Once you have the lower set for 4 do the same on 8. You may want to tune them just a little flat. Then tune your raise like mentioned above. Hope I am not confuseing you more. Again after rereading your post I suspect the 8th string lowere rod is going too far in the changer. That little gap between the collar and finger needs to be there. You probably had just a collar with about a quarter inch or less of space and no spacer. Un do what you did and see if 4 goes back to normal if so leave it and we will go from there. |
Thanks, John
Will do.
bob |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 9:40 am
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Sometimes, when it starts to feel like you are chasing your own tail, the best thing is to start over from the beginning. I'm not sure if you are there, but you might be. If you are, try this:
Step One: Loosen all the collars at the bell cranks on both the raises and the lowers.
Step Two: Tune the strings open, and then tune the changer (at the end plate) while pushing or pulling the changer fingers by hand. (Tune the lowers slightly below pitch so you are sure to have enough travel.)
Step Three: Make sure the lower return springs are properly tensioned. (It's better to be a little tighter than necessary than to be too loose.)
Step Four: Set the collars at the bell cranks on the lowers, STARTING WITH the string with the most travel. Adjust pedal/lever travel stop as necessary for the longest travel string.
Step Five: Set the collars at the bell cranks on the raises, STARTING WITH the string with the most travel. Adjust pedal/lever travel stop as necessary for the longest travel string.
Step Six: Tune any half-stop tuners.
It is very important to do these things in order and don't bypass any steps. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 11:38 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
Sometimes, when it starts to feel like you are chasing your own tail, the best thing is to start over from the beginning. I'm not sure if you are there, but you might be. If you are, try this:
Step One: Loosen all the collars at the bell cranks on both the raises and the lowers.
Step Two: Tune the strings open, and then tune the changer (at the end plate) while pushing or pulling the changer fingers by hand. (Tune the lowers slightly below pitch so you are sure to have enough travel.)
Step Three: Make sure the lower return springs are properly tensioned. (It's better to be a little tighter than necessary than to be too loose.)
Step Four: Set the collars at the bell cranks on the lowers, STARTING WITH the string with the most travel. Adjust pedal/lever travel stop as necessary for the longest travel string.
Step Five: Set the collars at the bell cranks on the raises, STARTING WITH the string with the most travel. Adjust pedal/lever travel stop as necessary for the longest travel string.
Step Six: Tune any half-stop tuners.
It is very important to do these things in order and don't bypass any steps. |
Exactly, but for the easiest pedal or lower action you'll need to balance the lowers, after you get them set-up. You want both lowering fingers to start and especially end at the same time.
You can do this by adding shock springs on the 8th string. Then go on and set the raises as Paul described, and then balance them. You may have to tweak the leverage points and add shock springs to accomplish this.
You cannot believe how important the concept of "balancing the changes" is to ease of P/P playability. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 11:56 am
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| Tony: I agree 100 percent. Every change on any given pedal or lever needs to hit the stop (changer finger hitting the body of the guitar) at exactly the same time. Thanks for catching that oversight on my part. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 12:17 pm
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
Sometimes, when it starts to feel like you are chasing your own tail, the best thing is to start over from the beginning. I'm not sure if you are there, but you might be. If you are, try this:
Step One: Loosen all the collars at the bell cranks on both the raises and the lowers.
Step Two: Tune the strings open, and then tune the changer (at the end plate) while pushing or pulling the changer fingers by hand. (Tune the lowers slightly below pitch so you are sure to have enough travel.)
Step Three: Make sure the lower return springs are properly tensioned. (It's better to be a little tighter than necessary than to be too loose.)
Step Four: Set the collars at the bell cranks on the lowers, STARTING WITH the string with the most travel. Adjust pedal/lever travel stop as necessary for the longest travel string.
Step Five: Set the collars at the bell cranks on the raises, STARTING WITH the string with the most travel. Adjust pedal/lever travel stop as necessary for the longest travel string.
Step Six: Tune any half-stop tuners.
It is very important to do these things in order and don't bypass any steps. |
This is a great setup primer but a bit more than I want to take on at the moment! I think I'll just work on getting the 4&8 lowers is order for now. But I do thank you for this valuable refrence!
This PP has has 10 knees and 9 floors!
bob
bob |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 3:04 pm
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| John McGuire wrote: |
| Bob it is simple when you get used to it but not that simple. If you moved a collar for string 8 next to the changer and then your problem started with 4th string I would start by reversing what you have done. On the lower rod you should just have enough of the lower rod sticking out to stay in the hole of the lower finger. There should be different size spacers on your lower rods where they go in the changer. The rod can go into the finger hole too far and bottom out. Check what you moved first. Then I would loosen the collars on 4 and 8 and stand the guitar on end changer up. Plug in a tuner and with your finger move the 4th string lower finger until you reach your note. If you can't reach it and you should if the collars are all loose back off the tuning screw on the end plate. Once you have the lower set for 4 do the same on 8. You may want to tune them just a little flat. Then tune your raise like mentioned above. Hope I am not confuseing you more. Again after rereading your post I suspect the 8th string lowere rod is going too far in the changer. That little gap between the collar and finger needs to be there. You probably had just a collar with about a quarter inch or less of space and no spacer. Un do what you did and see if 4 goes back to normal if so leave it and we will go from there. |
OK, John
I put that little gap back in the #8 changer collar. It took a few tries to get both lowers happy and for now it seems OK. I can't believe that little gap could wreak such havoc on me
I really do want to learn the basic concepts of the PP but a 10/9 guitar ain't the easiest to work on, if you know what I mean!
Thanks for all the informative posts; I am archiving them for when I write my "Push Pull Repair For Dummies" book. LOL !!
thanks guys,
bob |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 4:10 pm
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Bob drive to Roseburg Oregon and set with Tony for an afternoon, he will square you and your guitar away.
Larry Behm |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 4:14 pm
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check this out: Wilderness Guide for the Push-Pull
http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html
Larry: 10 pedals + 9 Knee Levers! I'd punt this one to Lynn Stafford. He has the patience of a saint and the skill of a neurosurgeon. Also I'll be in touch about returning the Telonics pedal this week
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 21 Jun 2010 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 4:18 pm
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Thanks, Tony
I have seen that.
Does anyone know where to buy that book by Clem ???
That used to be sold by the Emmons Co.?
bob |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 4:31 pm
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I've seen it on Ebay. It's not the best written instruction manual ever written. Kinda tough to follow along. If you get it, buy the version w/ the DVD.....or I think Bobbe Seymour (sp?) seels a tutorial out of his on-line shop:
www.steelguitar.net
under videos, scroll about 2/3 down the page |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 4:37 pm
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| Tony Glassman wrote: |
I've seen it on Ebay. It's not the best written instruction manual ever written. Kinda tough to follow along. If you get it, buy the version w/ the DVD.....or I think Bobbe Seymour (sp?) seels a tutorial out of his on-line shop:
www.steelguitar.net
under videos, scroll about 2/3 down the page |
Do you remember the name? Methodology or something? |
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John McGuire
From:
Swansea,Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 4:47 pm
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| Glad you got her fixed now have some fun with it! |
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John McGuire
From:
Swansea,Illinois, USA
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 21 Jun 2010 10:20 pm
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Ordered. (Book & DVD's)
Thanks!
bob |
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