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Topic: Sustain Creates Dischords |
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 4 May 2010 4:33 pm |
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Imagine you play C and hold it for a second, then you slide the bar up to F and hold it for a second.
During the fraction of a second it's taken the bar to travel from one note to the next you've played every fraction of a note between C and F, most of which will be dischordant.
Now add sustain, and all those notes are continuing to sound after you've reached F, and they're all sounding together.
Now combine that with the other strings, and the vocalist slurring between notes, and the band is creating much more dischordant than conchordant sound.
It seems that the ear listens to notes at time intervals set by the time signature of the music, and as long as the music is conchordant on the beats it ignores what is sounded between the beats. It's as though the brain expects the notes to come together to form chords at certain intervals, and is satisfied once it happens. Almost like the Flamenco player will retain the suspense by holding back playing the tonic of the chord until he's ready to release the mental tension.
Does anyone have any ideas on the subject ? |
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Carson Leighton
From:
N.B. Canada
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Posted 4 May 2010 5:53 pm
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I have edited this reply,,because after reading what Allen's subject matter,,my post was about something different...
It seems he is referring to a dischord sound while sliding from fret to fret caused by SUSTAIN..I was referring to something else,,more like a string that sounds without playing it,,caused by bar movement or a vibration set up by the harmonics of another string...I better get outta here before Cal Sharp thinks I'm crazy.....  
Last edited by Carson Leighton on 4 May 2010 9:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 4 May 2010 7:23 pm
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| If it isn't 'mindset', what makes the intervals discordant? or concordant? |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 May 2010 7:34 pm
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Rests are imaginary.
A note can sound in or out of tune with a note that's no longer being played.
You must hold your bar perfectly parallel with the fret markers, or you'll never play on The Big Stage.
Just for a few..
Also, the obscure East Indian Scales with varying or obviously dissonant tones were not done with music in mind. Some were arbitrarily arranged to match vedic astrological progressions, planetary positions, and some, just whimsically in a mathematical pattern.
If you tune one third flat, you have to remember where every other fhat third is in every chord and every scale you are going to play.
This is fun.
Actually "notes that no longer exist" is one of b0bs gems that I tried to paraphrase..
EJL |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 4 May 2010 8:05 pm Re: Sustain Creates Dischords
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
Imagine you play C and hold it for a second, then you slide the bar up to F and hold it for a second.
During the fraction of a second it's taken the bar to travel from one note to the next you've played every fraction of a note between C and F, most of which will be dischordant.
Now add sustain, and all those notes are continuing to sound after you've reached F, and they're all sounding together.
Now combine that with the other strings, and the vocalist slurring between notes, and the band is creating much more dischordant than conchordant sound.
It seems that the ear listens to notes at time intervals set by the time signature of the music, and as long as the music is conchordant on the beats it ignores what is sounded between the beats. It's as though the brain expects the notes to come together to form chords at certain intervals, and is satisfied once it happens. Almost like the Flamenco player will retain the suspense by holding back playing the tonic of the chord until he's ready to release the mental tension.
Does anyone have any ideas on the subject ? |
(emphasis added)
I don't think it's "the brain", in the sense of something intrinsic in the brain's structure or inherent in its behavior. If the highlighted statement applies, it only applies to a brain which has been "trained" to relate to musical sound in that way.
Non-Western musical traditions are, for the most part, not based on that concept. I once played some (for a Western listener) very accessible songs (Dave Mason tunes) on guitar for a friend in India who had not been exposed to Western music, and he was entirely baffled by it. What to me were consonant chords in accessible progressions, and very commonplace ones at that, to him were an inexplicable jumble of simultaneous notes. He just shook his head and said "I cannot understand it." |
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Paul E. Brennan
From:
Dublin, Ireland
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Posted 5 May 2010 2:17 am
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| Quote: |
| You must hold your bar perfectly parallel with the fret markers, or you'll never play on The Big Stage. |
That pretty much guarantees you'll be out of tune. The fret markers are a guide only.... |
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Tony Davis
From:
Brisbane, QLD, Australia
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Posted 5 May 2010 3:37 am
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| Reminds me of Bagpipes !!!!! |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 May 2010 4:46 am
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Brint raises a good point: to a large extent we readily accept any number of what would be oddities in another musical culture. Even in the limited and claustrophic world of pop, blues, country or bluegrass there are common practices that would grate on 'foreign' ears.
Bluegrass music (for example) is littered with perfect flat-thirds in single-note runs played against major chords in which the 'third' is not flattened at all! Pedal steel guitarists don't only slide their bar between positions, they also bend notes within a chord; while it sounds 'sweet' to us, it clearly contravenes any number of musical laws and someone who has spent their life under a more strict set of disciplines could find it unpleasant.
It's too late for me - I remember the thrill of hearing a guitar string being bent to achieve an effect when I was very young indeed; I still love it! 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Stephen Silver
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 5 May 2010 8:53 am
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RR said
| Quote: |
| It's too late for me - I remember the thrill of hearing a guitar string being bent to achieve an effect when I was very young indeed; I still love it! |
Roger, for many years I have passingly thought of what drew me to the steel guitar. I was a classically trained musician from 4 years old and though I listed to pop/rock music in my early years, it really wasn't until my later teens that I started playing electric bass in a rock band.
Your comment and observation hit me squarely between the eyes...you nailed it for me as well. It is what makes our instrument one of the most unique in all of music. The ability to bend strings and resolve notes and chords is what drew me to the instrument and continues to send a thrill up my leg every time I play it, hear it, or see it played.
Thanks
SS
_________________
Life is mostly Attitude and Timing |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 May 2010 9:19 am
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I was thinking of this last night, before I read this topic, while listening to a Lloyd Green's "Green Strings". It's a fast tune, but some of the A pedal bends seem to be musically timed to a 16th (or 32nd?) note. The effect is culturally specific to country music and its Appalachian roots. It would probably sound discordant to people raised in different musical traditions.
By the way, the blocking on that track is incredible!
| eric west wrote: |
Rests are imaginary.
A note can sound in or out of tune with a note that's no longer being played. |
I once tried to play John Cage's 4'33" but I couldn't get the tempo right. just kidding
Afterwords, Eric said that I was out of tune. just kidding 
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 5 May 2010 9:47 am
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The in between notes and transition chords is where the music lives. The whole concept of the dom 7 chords is discordant. The tonal gravity created by the journey to and from the Dom7 chord is the basic harmonic function of western music.
One thing that makes pedal steel totally cool is that you can play chords that would sound like dissonant note clusters on any other instrument and have them sound beautiful and evocative. The pedal steel uses primarily the even overtones for its sound and you combine that with tuning sweet and you get our unique musical voice. A perfect example in a country music setting is John Hughey's playing. Take the "Look at Us' intro and solo. If you play those same intervals on a piano it can sound dissonant. But John's playing is sweet and clear. Or check out how Buddy Emmons uses the top 2 strings on the E9 neck. He plays chords where the intervals are stacks of whole and half steps and unisons that move and blend back to the tonic. Those kinds of chords do not work in the same way on other instruments.
_________________
Bob |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 5 May 2010 11:55 am
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| When I was first learning Steel Guitar there were what was called (Grace Notes). These were notes just a fret short of where the melody note which you would slide into. Are the slurs and slides done with the padals and knee levers just elongated groups of Grace Notes ? Just a thought ! |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 5 May 2010 12:09 pm
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All music tells its story through tension and release.
Tension comes from
Dissonance (e.g. closely voiced notes that beat against each other)
Minor tonality (related to dissonance)
Shorter notes / Faster tempos
Complexity of rhythm, melody and harmony
Big 'leap' intervals
. . . and many other factors
Release comes from
resolving any of those things
Listen to most any Buddy Emmons solo. It will often start out dirt simple and build in complexity. As it builds it will become more tense / less stable and then resolve. It may go through this build/release cycle several times, just like a good short story or novel -- an anticlimax, for example.
A long slide builds tension (will he make it in time?) and releases when it reaches a stable destination by resolving the dissonance.
That's one way to look at improvisation.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 5 May 2010 7:51 pm Re: Sustain Creates Dischords
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
Imagine you play C and hold it for a second, then you slide the bar up to F and hold it for a second.
During the fraction of a second it's taken the bar to travel from one note to the next you've played every fraction of a note between C and F, most of which will be dischordant.
Now add sustain, and all those notes are continuing to sound after you've reached F, and they're all sounding together.
Now combine that with the other strings, and the vocalist slurring between notes, and the band is creating much more dischordant than conchordant sound.
It seems that the ear listens to notes at time intervals set by the time signature of the music, and as long as the music is conchordant on the beats it ignores what is sounded between the beats. It's as though the brain expects the notes to come together to form chords at certain intervals, and is satisfied once it happens. Almost like the Flamenco player will retain the suspense by holding back playing the tonic of the chord until he's ready to release the mental tension.
Does anyone have any ideas on the subject ? |
Yes I have an idea on the subject.
If this were a book it would be Fiction but interesting in an odd sort of way. This is another of Alan's jokes and a good one. |
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Ulric Utsi-Γ
hlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 5 May 2010 10:19 pm
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The brain processes the input(i.e. sounds)into
coherent,familiar information,otherwise weΒ΄d all
go mad or,at least,we would not have "music",as we
know it...information,information,information,and
the receiver has to develop a system to decode it,
OR let it remain meaningless.McUtsi |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 6 May 2010 6:56 am
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Dischord : Notes that do not make a chord.
Discord : Continuing disagreement.
Conchord : Notes that constiture a chord.
Concord : Agreement.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 May 2010 8:58 am
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Conchord: I can't find it in my concordance.
Could be a made up word describing the super sonic passenger jet that crashed. Perhaps an omen. |
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Carson Leighton
From:
N.B. Canada
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Posted 6 May 2010 9:39 am
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| Hey,,looks like we got ourselves a new word,,should work well with our "copedant"...Thanks Alan |
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Ransom Beers
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Posted 6 May 2010 1:54 pm
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I seen a picture of the concord,fast,really fast.
Besides everytime I slide my bar I make a dischord(still larnin' ya see) |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 6 May 2010 9:43 pm Re: Sustain Creates Dischords
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| ...Now add sustain, and all those notes are continuing to sound after you've reached F, and they're all sounding together... |
Alan,
When you say sustain are you referring to reverb?
I think I follow your principle. It's kind of like the written sentence where the letters of words are scrambled, but the first and last letters are correctly placed. Its still very readable. The dissonance of chords in motion and layers of sounds with overtones and harmonics out of key is listenable if they are resolved at a predictable beat or bar.
Clete |
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