E raise/lower right or left question

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

What are the advantages of having the E raise and lower on the left knee? I know it's common but I've always played with those changes on my right knee which has its own advantages. I just got a new guitar set up with the E raise/lowers on the left knee and rather than switch it over right away I want to give the left knee a try -- but I'm wondering what to expect. The rest of the set up is B-Bb on the vertical and 9/2 lowers and 1/2 raises on the right knee. Thanks in advance for any input.

Dale Hansen · From: Hendersonville,Tennessee, (USA)

Jim,
With a good fitting guitar, and for playing the standard 'Emmons' set-up (ABC, vs the 'Day' set-up,CBA). The E raises LKL), are a natural motion corresponding with the A pedal(B-C#), such as the 1 chord inversion lying 3 frets above the 'open' 1 chord/w A&F engaged. Similarly, the natural leg motion of lowering the E's on the LKR fits along nicely with the motion of rocking the foot over onto pedal 'b' for the 5b7.
There are guys out there that do like the 2nd string lower on one or the other LK side, but I personally feel the change over there interferes with the ability to use those pedals with a 2 position lever; D - at half-stop, then again, fully engaged to C#.
My first decent guitar had the E's on the RK side.
You can learn new habits, and eventually find yourself to be better off for making the transition.

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

Thanks, Dale, that makes a lot of sense.

Next question: is there anyone out there who operates LKL and LKV at the same time, & if so, any tips because when I try it sounds like a cat in heat.

Dale Hansen · From: Hendersonville,Tennessee, (USA)

"Next question: is there anyone out there who operates LKL and LKV at the same time, & if so, any tips because when I try it sounds like a cat in heat." - Jim Robbins

Yes, as a matter of fact,...I do.
You can hear that particular combo used on on "Maiden's Prayer".
It's on my page over here > http://steelguitar.ning.com/profile/DaleHansen
Scroll down underneath the odd lookin' fella in the barrel. Look for the Red and blue "My Music" box, There's only two tunes, one being "Maidens Prayer", it's an old Bob Wills tune.
Tip:
Look for, and click the little ^ arrow at the right side of the player. Select 'Pop out', which will bring up a new player skin. This will allow you to go directly to that section, and hear it as many times as you'd like.
The lick, or run, in question is at 2:29 -2:33

What I'm doing here, is engaging Pedal A, and the 'F' lever while gripping the chord position of strings 2,3,&4 at the 13th fret, then while thumbing the 5th string (still holding the A&F engaged), I raise my heel and engage the VK, then release the A pedal (only) ending up with the VK, and the LKL to fade it out.
Once again, you need a really good, personally fitting guitar, to pull this one off right.

Good luck Jim

DH

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

Hi Jim, I didn't catch what kind of guitar you have or whethter you have C6. I like the E changes on my right knee, so I can move my left foot around on the C6 changes. If you only have a S10 with 3 pedals, I guess it's your choice where you have your changes. Good luck. Larry
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CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

i find it practical to have the Es to F on LKL & the Es to Eb on RKL
in the same way Eb to D on 2 : LKR & Es to Eb on 4 : RKL (chromatic runs)

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I have guitars with both setups and like them both for different reasons. The primary advantage to having the E string changes on the right knee is the ability to set them up very close to the knee and thus provide a much faster action than the wider spacing required to accomodate the movement of the left knee when rocking the A and/or B pedals.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I have them on opposite knees, same as CrowBear. Wouldn't have them any other way!

John Ummel · From: Arlington, WA.

I'm with Crowbear & John B, E's to F: LKL; E's to Eb: RKL..........I'm currently playing a guitar built by Bob Simmons with E to Eb on LKR and it just doesn't work for me, I've tried to make a new habit but I may sell this guitar for that reason. It also has 2nd string lower on P1 and Franklin change on RKL. Bob built this guitar for himself and thought the setup is really cool. Love the guitar, pull-release, very smooth.

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

Thanks all for your informative replies.

Dale, that is a very cool lick and impressive playing all around on "Maiden's Prayer".

Larry -- it's a D10 (Desert Rose, gorgeous guitar).

The problem I'm having now is that I've gotten used to using the B-Bb in combination with both E raise and lower. My other guitar has the E raise and lower on the right knee and B-Bb on LKR. Lots you can do with that. So it's either put the B-Bb on the right knee on the Desert Rose, or switch the E's over to the right or switch the E lower over, do those chromatic runs CrowBear is talking about and get an acrobatic knee for my 5th and 4th string moves using the B-Bb and E-F ...

Dale Hansen · From: Hendersonville,Tennessee, (USA)

Jim,
My humble advice is first,..at the very least, have your E's to F's, and E's to Eb's on the same knee...whichever one you choose.
The logic behind this is very simple: You'll never use both of those levers at the same time, and you can only move that knee in one direction, or the other, leaving two more options open on the other knee.
I prefer having both E levers on the left knee, since they correspond with the pedal movements, and my right knee is still freed up to engage my (RKR) 2nd, D# >D >>C# and 9th D > C#, (Which I do, frequently) or, the RKL if need be. With a bit of conditioning, practice, and more importantly, a good fitting guitar, you should be able to engage the V lever with either E lever on that left knee. Think of it as more of a 'wedging' move, and you'll get the picture.
Glad to hear that the "Maiden" clip helped you to get a little more familiar with that (A,F, + V) change. Thanks for the kind words, too.
Take care, and let me know if I can help again, another time.
DH
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Assuming Emmons ABC setup and E=>F on LKL -

After trying E=>Eb on both LKR (Emmons-style) and RKL (Sho Bud or Franklin-style) for a fairly extended period, I ultimately went with RKL - i.e., E=>F and E=>Eb on opposite knees.

To me, this is the definitive discussion on that topic - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769.html - I suggest you read all 3 pages.

There was a recent poll on this here - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=160728

There is a good argument for either approach and I think in the end, it winds up being a choice that depends on how you use them and various ergonomic issues.

I even set up a steel Day, which for me necessitated moving E raise to LKR or to the right knee, and put E raise/lower on the right leg just to try them. It helps to have a steel that is easy to experiment with like, let's say, a BMI. Ultimately I kept on coming back to Emmons ABC pedals, E raise on LKL, and E lower on RKL. I also think that it's true that one can get used to most anything, but I do think the choice can make a musical difference.

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

Lots of food for thought on that thread (and the poll), Dave, thanks very much. Dale, I've managed to get some of the transitions a little smoother with one knee and will keep trying for a while even though that wedging move makes me feel like I'm in a street fight with the poor thing. For now I've got two D10's set up opposite so at least I'll learn a little flexibility until I figure out which way I want to go.

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