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Topic: Instructional material prices |
David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 2:29 pm |
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I have taught 6 string guitar lessons for a while and have bought several pieces of instructional materials in my time..This past week I was comparring the price of 6 string vs pedal steel material and found that on average the pedal steel material is about 60% higher..Really doesnt make sense..Just wondered if any one else has noticed this or has a logical explanation..
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NASHVILLE 400
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CUSH CASE RACK
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http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 3:04 pm
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David, my logic would be that there is at least 60% fewer steel players than there are guitar players.
So it stands to reason that teaching materials cost more.
That's why we all find this steel guitar forum so invaluable. Here we get FREE teaching from the very best.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Mike Schwartzman
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 3:27 pm
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Yes indeed, As Bent says...the supply of 6 string learning material is much greater than PSG material.
Additional work on written tablature has to account for all mechanical moves on knees and pedals.
Also if you've seen video instucton material, the camera work often is in a split screen format that covers the pedal work as well as the right and left hand work. At least twice as much camera work.
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Emmons Push Pull, BMI, Session 400, Home of the Slimcaster Tele. |
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Walter Bowden
From:
Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 3:37 pm
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I think its a practical example of market prices determined by supply and demand. A whole bunch of people are wanting to learn guitar all over the world and a whole bunch of instruction selling companies are selling their goods taking advantage of economy of scale and mass production/distribution.
Steel guitar just doesn't command the same numbers, so it figures less demand dictates smaller production runs, fewer vendors, etc. and the product has a higher cost/selling point. All this is IMHO of course.
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 3:50 pm
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its not only 6 string material-- I just used that as an example...I am a registered 6 string teacher with a company that sells instructional materials( I get a discount)In the catalog I have for example 6 string 4 video and book $36.95...Fiddle $16.95...Banjo..$19.95...Irish Penny whistle $12.95...Jeff Newman Pedal Steel...$69.95..I'm just saying it seems odd..(examples only)
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 3:59 pm
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David, nothing odd about those numbers. It still holds true what we are trying to get across to you...amount of steel players vs. guitar, banjo, whatever - supply and demand.
I also wish to remind you if you want teaching for free, just stay close to the players on this forum. Here you learn it for free. Also youtube and the likes of Mickey Adams, Joe Barcus, David Hartley.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Don Sulesky
From:
Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:06 pm
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David
If you think it costs more you are right as they have noted above.
Think about how much time is involved putting a book of 10 to 20 or more songs together with all the pedal and knee lever combinations and then including a CD as I do.
Try it yourself then ask the same question again if you want.
Don |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:10 pm
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| PSG is more complex and requires a greater degree of multitasking and the instructional material is by necessity more complicated and requires much more explanation regarding those issues as well as the recognition of other technique and special notation. |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:24 pm
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Bent I am not looking for any free lessons ...I have not looked at any of Mickey's stuff so I cant say anything about them..
Don I am sure that you put a lot of time and effort into your material..
I have previewed some materials out on the market and for what they involve its a joke..$55.95 for something that wouldnt even build a good fire....and then again I've seen stuff for $49.95 that was chock full of great material....I deal with supply and demand everyday in my line of work but I dont try to rip any body off Nor do I try to act like a member of a secret society......STOP and think about it for a moment..Is this the reason the world has so few steel players...Price our equipment and materials so high we stop every body from getting into it? Pretty disheartning for someone wanting to learn--IMO
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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Walter Bowden
From:
Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:35 pm
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Hi David. I see you have a Carter Starter steel. They sell for about the same price as a decent electric or acoustic guitar so a beginning steeler gets a steel at about the same price as a beginning guitarist pays for a guitar.
That doesn't sound like pricing the instrument so high that no one wants to learn it to me.
_________________
Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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Walter Bowden
From:
Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:41 pm
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Sorry I left this out. I just received a DVD of "Learn to Play Pedal Steel Guitar" by Bruce Bouton for around $20 + shipping and handling and it is a great course, once again, IMHO.
Instructional material can be had at a reasonable price so I don't see the prohibitive cost factor coming into play for that reason either.
_________________
Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:49 pm
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Yes I am learning on a carter starter--$695.00
I also play a Fender Tele $700.00
Pearl export series drums $850.00
I have in my collection..Bruce Boughton video $20.00 (junk)
Mike Archer Video ( greatest)
Dick Sexton Tabs (free) excellent
Jeff Newman course (fair) not worth the price I paid
Other books and videos both good and bad
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 5:40 pm
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| David Beckner wrote: |
Bent I am not looking for any free lessons ...I have not looked at any of Mickey's stuff so I cant say anything about them..
Don I am sure that you put a lot of time and effort into your material..
I have previewed some materials out on the market and for what they involve its a joke..$55.95 for something that wouldnt even build a good fire....and then again I've seen stuff for $49.95 that was chock full of great material....I deal with supply and demand everyday in my line of work but I dont try to rip any body off Nor do I try to act like a member of a secret society......STOP and think about it for a moment..Is this the reason the world has so few steel players...Price our equipment and materials so high we stop every body from getting into it? Pretty disheartning for someone wanting to learn--IMO |
David, I take offense to several things you said here.
I realize that you are entitled to your own opinions, but now it;s time that YOU stop and think about the way you talk (write)
"it's a joke...won't even build a good fire" So, you think that you, a green horn pedal steel player, are qualified to talk like this about some of the innovators of this instrument??To use the Newman courses as an example, Jeff spent lots of time, money and effort to put together these crappy courses that the whole world of steel players has learned so much from. He educated the masses from USA to Norway. Are you qualified to even use strong words like this? I think not.
"rip anybody off"..woah! Just because YOU don't like the Bruce Bouton course don't mean that it is crap geez man cool your jets eh?
This secret society crap you are laying on us:
I just finished telling you how everybody here on this forum go over and above the call of duty to help a budding steel player or a more experienced one. These guys are pros, the ones like Mickey who posts 100's of teaching videos for FREE on youtube.
You say you're not out for free lessons. So why would you then call the paid ones crap and fire material??
You get on here man, and ask your questions about learning to play, in a nice way, and you will find that people will bend over backwards to help you.
OTOH, not many of them will stick with you if you keep coming on with the same attitude as you have displayed in this thread.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 5:46 pm
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David, if one doesn't agree with the price of an item, they always have the option of not purchasing it. However, I believe most of the available pedal steel instruction courses offer excellent value for the cost. Jeff Newman's material is well worth what it costs. Compared to the price of private lessons, you get more for your money with the Newman courses. The youtube lessons from Micky Adams and Joe Barcus, just to name a couple, are very worthwhile, and free. There are many instructional courses to chose from, but, there is really no shortcut to learning PSG, it takes time and dedication. If you spread the cost of learning materials over a few years, it really is not that much. Good luck.
edited to add; the reason there aren't many steel players is that you have to spend some time and put a lot of effort into learning it. It won't happen in a month or a year, for some it will never happen. |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 6:14 pm
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Bent , I did not say that Jeff Newman was not good to start fire..I said "material that I have previewed that cost $55.95".......I am saying there is material out there that cost a small fortune - you get it..put it in your vcr or dvd and you watch some Clown show off how good he thinks he is for 45 minutes and then he says "oh by the way ,Here is how you tune your guitar..Thanks for buying my video ..check abc website for how you can purchase more titles in this series." To that YES I do say I have a right to judge..
AS far as people on this forum or any other that I have checked out goes..I have asked question after question and have seen post by many other newbies who have asked questions pertaining to the instrument or a certain song and have gotten replies such as "I have this for sale." or That guitar is ajunk"or my favorite "What you need to do is email me and buy my bar or this amp or use these strings,if you dont you'll never be able to play or sound good"..
I can tell you from my own personal experiences that the responses from people that I have had-- the ones that actually made sense I can count on one hand..Where are the GREAT PEOPLE YOU SPEAK OF
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 6:21 pm
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Bill I understand that it takes time in learning...I didnt learn guitar over night.it took many years of practice to get where I am today and I still have a long way to go...But not once have I ever refused to help a fellow musician if I could..I'm just saying that in the world of steel guitar there are alot of people who say "I cant figure out why there are no more steel players than this" with out taking into consideration the cost of materials out there that are non sense...I looked at one web site where some one charges something like $30 just for a tab sheet of ONE song...
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 6:28 pm
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There you go again, calling a pro a "clown"
You have been a member here not quite 3 months and you have enough qualifications to call them clowns.
Well, if you're such a good judge of people and pro players and sellers then you don't need me to tell you right from wrong
Man I just told you of some of the great people: Mickey Adams, Joe Barcus, but sadly I think I can keep telling you ad nauseum and it won't matter. It'll be in one ear and out the other because you listen only to yourself cause you have it all figured out when you say that a players material like Bruce Bouton's is crap.
What you need, my friend, is a healthy dose of humility, get your head outa your behind so you are able to listen and LEARN.
I'm outa here, CLICK.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 6:58 pm
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Go back to the original question..Why is steel guitar material higher than others..forget all the non sense and get with the program...what I am saying is this you buy steel material for double the price of any other instructional material out there ..spend money to learn something from this and you watch some clown show off for 40 minutes..another 10 minutes of 'Buy my equipment advertising' and 5 minutes of "this is how you tune up" then 5 ending credits of how to obtain more material by this "artist"..Then you tell me this is not disheartning for a newby who is seriously trying to learn to play and has spent good .hard earned money in an effort to do so and then is still scatching his head trying to figure out how to do so and now has no more comprehension than that which he started .Now he is stuck with a video or material that will never get back the monies spent ..I went and looked at one of the you tubes that you mention..let me say this - this person showed what he could do but didnt break it down ...
Time on forum or in a club or any other is not needed fo some one to be able to judge or have an opinion,neither does one's time playing or building or any other category for that matter...All you need is 2 eyes and a set of ears and a little something in between.to realize the person on the video's intention....making money and laughing at others loss
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 6:59 pm
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Yes, I have definitely noticed that, David. And it is indeed frustrating to the beginner, as are the instrument prices. I, too, play a CS, and - with all due respect to others' opinions on this thread - even it is much higher in cost than a comparable beginner 6-string (you can easily find any number of Mex teles or certain Yamaha acoustics, for example, for 300 or less).
One thing that strikes me about it is why some of those in the industry don't realize this niche and capitalize on it. I mean, the PSG world really needs an intermediate guitar that's more affordable (say about $1,000-$1,500 retail). They mostly seem to jump from the CS, retailing at about 800-900 bones, to several thousand dollars for the next step up in most cases. I haven't spent that on some of my finest, sometimes vintage, 6-strings. I know there are probably some exceptions, but they seem to be few and far b/w. And I know there's much more to a PSG, but still, it seems like the market is there for someone to jump on.
I guess it really does come down to supply and demand, like Walter said.
I think everyone should go a little easy on David, though - he's entitled to his opinion and he makes a valid point. However, he seems to be getting bullied a bit by a sort-of "old boys' club" splitting hairs on semantics. (It's intimidating to us beginners to come on here - cut us some slack.) I think just because he's a PSG beginner doesn't invalidate his opinion or his points. (And I don't necessarily agree with him, either - I got a good bit out of my Bruce B. vid.) In fact, his perspective as a beginner may offer something to the more experience players who haven't worn the beginner goggles in quite some time. To the experienced, certain teaching material may seem great - but to the rest of us, it may leave out some key building blocks hindering us from reaching our goal more easily. This is why they test-market toys on kids and not adults. |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:04 pm
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Bent..Since you are a man of such AUTHORITY..let me ask you this,,The very first time I posted a seat on here that I built was it not you that started posting about how crappy it looked??? What qualifications do you have in judging other peoples work ..I guess that would make you a "green horn"when it comes to upholstery work...Just to let you know I have sold 9 seats as of today and have orders for 2 more..
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:10 pm
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| You two sound like an old married couple. |
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Mike Schwartzman
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:21 pm
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Well David...I'm certainly not an experienced player. I've been at it for under 3 years. I have seen instructional material that wasn't particularly helpful for a newbie at any price. I can chalk that up to experience, and me figuring out exactly what I want to learn and who (or who not) to learn from. Not all learning material is geared towards beginners.
Take for example... a Jeff Newman course that I had early on, Up From the Top A & B pedals Part I. After studying as instructed and practicing along with that course for a couple of months...I could not play blistering lead rides or complex chords as a result, BUT I was able to comp rhythm and do simple fills with other musicians in any key on many classic country type tunes at the 3-4 month mark.
Not a cheap course, but was it worth it to me? Absolutely! I have a decent ear, but I'm not in posession of extraordinary talent. That course and 1 lesson from a pro, along with dedicated practice got me playing with others in a relatively short period of time.
If PSG were easier to learn there would be more of us, but it's not easier to learn. That opinion is not mine, but is the opinion of one of the greatest players in the history of PSG. He said that directly to me and another student of his.
So at this point I encourage you to hang in there and make patient progress. I'm off to practice.
_________________
Emmons Push Pull, BMI, Session 400, Home of the Slimcaster Tele. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:26 pm
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John, don't we though? 
Yes, David, it was I who did a critique of your seats.
However, I did not call them crappy, or not fit for firewood, junk or any of the adjectives you used here about pro steel players/teachers.
I did bring to your attention the crooked hinges, the off center handle, the crooked cutting, the bad-looking folding and creases. It does not take an upholsterer nor an authority on the subject to bring these things to the maker's attention. The only mistake I made, for which I apologize here and now, is that I critiqued it in the wrong thread, namely in the For Sale dept., which b0b brought to my attention and deleted said posts.
I am glad you have sold 9 of them. The workmanship has most likely improved and you and your customers are happy. Kudos.
It is quite something else for a 3 month member to come on here and call the work of pro players and teachers for crap and firewood material, at the same time as you suggest that the members of this forum are in some secret society.
David, my man, no wonder you find very few helpful people around here with that attitude. Let me reiterate: Some humility is warranted and a change of word usage would be beneficial to you.
Am I getting through to you?
Peace! 
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/
Last edited by Bent Romnes on 26 Apr 2010 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Beckner
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:26 pm
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John thanks for your input...I did not mention any names as being the clown BUT as usual - as you will learn the ( lets run over the newby rule applies) Bent and I are definately NOT a married couple...I am just sick and tired of him thinking he can twist things around on me....He is entitled to his opinion and for that my hat is off to him....BUT make notes on here as to whom will help you and of those who are better left alone. 
_________________
WILCOX SD10 (love the white mica)
WALKER SEAT
NASHVILLE 400
BEHRINGER RACK TUNER
CUSH CASE RACK
PEAVEY DELTA FEX
PARTS CASTER.Gospel and Classic Country Music
http://www.dbupholstery.yolasite.com |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:34 pm
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David, with all due respect, I think you are confounding two different issues that are separate. One is why steel guitar instructional material costs more than comparable material for other instruments. The other issue is the quality of anybody's product, regardless of what it costs.
As someone who produces tablature and rhythm tracks for sale, I can address the first issue, as others have already alluded to the answer. They cost more because, for the same amount of work that goes into creating them (and it can be a lot, believe me!), you're going to sell far fewer copies than someone making the same quality product for guitar, piano, fiddle or penny whistle. When I, for instance, create tablature of just one song from one of my CDs, it takes me many, many hours to recreate the parts I played, get them down on paper just right, proof-read it, make sure the layout is good, copy it package it, promote it, etc. Oh, I didn't mention the extra studio time I have to buy to have the tune remixed without the steel part, then burning the discs with both the steel part and the rhythm track. And in the end, maybe I'll sell a few dozen copies. Someone doing this for guitar or fiddle might sell a few hundred copies. Their fixed expenses of time, labor and money will be compensated by many more sales when there are tens of thousands of guitarists as your potential market. Not so with steel guitar. So, yes, good instruction for steel SHOULD cost more.
Now, then comes the issue of whether the material, in your judgement was helpful to you or not, 'good' or 'bad', 'crap', etc. (assuming you are in any position to judge this, which frankly I doubt after reading your appraisal of Jeff Newman's work: Jeff was THE premier teacher of pedal steel for decades and for a reason. He produced the VERY BEST stuff for many years and never wavered in his commitment to quality. In recent years others have also produced quality teaching materials, but that doesn't diminish the quality of Jeff's material by one bit. If you fail to see the quality of Jeff's material, than with all due respect, I think you need to look inward, because the answer lies within.)
Having said that, I wouldn't deny, on principal, that there could be some 'crap' on any market, whether we're talking about steel guitars, standard guitars, flutes, piano, or penny whistle instruction. But this is a separate issue from the matter of the economics of producing a product for a small niche market. You just have to have a higher price point to recoup your investment when your target audience is so small.
Best wishes,
Jim
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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