Close to Pedal Steel Purchase - Arrived Today

Will Jaffe · From: California, USA

I've been doing my research, lots of searching here on the forum and am now within a week from ordering my first pedal steel. Or buy a used one. I'm hoping you experienced guys can help me.

I live close to Jim's store in CA so am fortunate enough to have tried many steels.

I love, perform and have studied many styles of music, including swing, rock, country, blues, jazz etc. I'm hooked on slide and am going down the pedal steel road.

Unfortunately weight of the instrument is a very large factor for me. I should be lighting my load not adding to it. I'm looking for the lightest, quality instrument possible.
It seems a S10 GFI E9 is quality and light enough.
I do love the 6th tuning. I am already fairly comfortable with it. It seems to me I should build on what I already know.
I see an E9 neck gives 7 strings of a C6 tuning. I also see how well laid out the E9 money neck is. And it appears nice and simple compared to the U12. I've been making music on 8 strings or less for many years, so I'm probably missing something, but I not gassing for 12 strings. I want to get up to speed in this lifetime, incorporating what I already know, but not limiting myself either. But you guys know better.

Part of my debate with myself is an S10 E9 or U12? If a U12 were the same weight I'd get a U12.

Being I love the 6th tuning would I be giving up much getting a S10 E9 over a U12 to save weight?
Or is the weight difference not enough to sacrifice the benefits of a U12? An extra 6+ pounds is pushing it for me.

Any opinions at all on a first purchase are welcome, please. Also if you have a single (no pad) GFI Ultra you've been thinking of selling at a fair price, please PM me.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I would suggest you get a simple 10 string E9. It is easier to buy, sell, and carry. After you play that for a while you will get a much better idea of what you want.

Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

Carter, GFI and Williams makes good, lightweight s-10's.
You would be amazed how much C6 sounding stuff you can get out of them.
Run a youtube search for "faux C6".
I'm sure Jim has some advice to give as well.
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Will, you might want to look at our leader b0b's hybrid 8 string pedal steel tuning that he has on his Desert Rose. This gives the basics of the 9th and 6th tunings and makes the load light. Click on the "links" and look for his set-up under unusual tunings.

I'm sure he can elaborate on and explain how that system works for him. It sure sounds good in the clips that he posted a while back. You might have to pay him a fee to use his tuning though. Laughing

For a full complement of modern E9/B6 changes on a reasonably light U12, consider Williams, Excel, GFI and Carter.

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Will,
I would follow Earnest's advice if I were you and since you are near Jim and don't have a problem with keyless you ought to be fine with a GFI.
I bought a keyless GFI S-10 a few years back sorta loaded up and even ordered extra rods and bell cranks for the sole purpose of having something to experiment with. I have fooled with a lot of steels in my years, it's hard for me to imagine an easier guitar to make changes to and it is nice and light but sturdy.
Also there is a lot more 6'th stuff and altered chords available on E9 than most people realize but sometimes you do have to skip a few strings to get the notes---it's on there though!!

Will Jaffe · From: California, USA

Thanks to each of you for your good advice. Especially the go with the E9 setup. That's makes great sense to me. And so it is...

I may order a new one if I can't find a used one soon.

I've got to figure out a few more details. Like:

Have any of you tried aluminum legs to reduce weight? Any issues with it?

If I was to add a pedal or have a knee lever work with the B6 part of the E9 tuning, what would be most valuable?

Has anyone converted E9 into a 10 string universal with success? (just getting ahead of myself)

Jay, you mentioned the keyless ... is there some issue going keyless with the GFI?

Thanks guys.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Will,My Desert Rose has aluminum legs and there no issues with them at all,they knock off quite a bit of weight.I've been playing western swing and standards on an E9th tuning forever,No it doesn't get as low tuning wise as a C6th but I fool a lot of people,If you get a chance listen to Randy Beavers on E9th you'll swear he was playing a C6th.
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

Jim Palenscar got me my CarpSteel that I use as a "fly-gig" guitar and then we put an Alumnitone pick up in it and it is a great sounding and good playing axe that I would recommend you look in to.
JE:-)>
_________________
Emmons D10PP 8/4 -75'
Emmons S-10PP 3/4 - 79'
Emmons S-12PP 3/4 -78'
MSA Legend SD12 5/5 -06'
Mullen S-12 4/5 - 1986
Nashville 112 x2 W/Knob Guards - Don't leave home with out one!
Walker SS rack system - 12"BW's
Quilter Steelaire Combo

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

Another lightweight steel that is perfect for any player is the Jackson Blackjack or Blackjack Custom.

Brett

Will Jaffe · From: California, USA

Thanks for all the suggestions. I've checked out every suggestion made. So many choices.

The Jackson EDGE Ultra Lite weights only 19 pounds! It's aluminum. Wish I could try one, but without hearing it thru a similar amp I'm in the dark.
Anyone play one and compare against a GFI or similar? What does all Aluminum do for tone?

I'm leaning towards the GFI because I got to play a couple and they have good tone and look well built. The sound did not blow me away, like my old tone monster 53' fender dual 8 pro. Perhaps with some tweaking it could.

If I was to add a pedal or have a knee lever work with the B6 part of the E9 tuning, what would be most valuable?

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Hey Will...I agree with Earnest (as usual). If I were you, I'd really consider working as closely with Jim Palenscar as possible. I could go on and on about this. His trade in/up policies are unheard of, not to mention his service and knowledge are nearly impossible to find in any kind of music store. You are truly lucky to be taking up the PSG at a time when you are living so closely to such a rare and special resource. You can always go out and buy your dream steel new from the builder when you know a little more about what you want.

Honestly, since I am a little familiar with your great guitar and dobro playing, I'm thinking U12 is for you...but for now the S10 E9 will give you plenty to think about. I've heard you playing chord melody stuff on guitar, and from my experience it's easier to transfer that knowledge to a steel that you can build chords from the Bass up, i.e. a 12 string extended E9, U12, or some 6th tuning. At least as a reference point. (I know a few guys will argue that it's verboten to play down in the bass players area, but to that I say you don't have to always play in the low register all the time)

One more thing....over the years I see a lot of guys making the mistake of thinking that pedal steels are more difficult than non-pedals. That's just not true.
It's a lot harder to be a great non pedal player. As far as the mechanics of pedal steel, I'm not so sure that less is particularly more. For 30 years I stubbornly held on to the notion that I could eventually do everything I was hearing in my head on my basic D10 8+2 Shobud. Although it sounded great, it wasn't until I got an instrument with more knee levers etc. that I found out what I was missing. I could kick myself that it took that long to have that "ah ha" moment. I kept thinking that someday I'd discover some mysterious secret, when all it was was a limited axe.

Will Jaffe · From: California, USA

Hey thanks for the advice Rick. Cool to bump into you here. Yes, I really like the advice from Earnest and you and great help from all.

I'm leaning towards having Jim order me a GFI Ultra next week, E9 single 3x4. Maybe with Aluminum legs to keep weight down? I can always add a pedal or two later right? What do you think of the choice? Maybe I'll find one used.
Jim's a great guy and has been very patient and super helpful with me at the store. I'd much prefer to buy from Jim and most likely will.

I've always been very intrigued and excited by the pedal steel. I'm somewhat surprised to find myself going down this road.

Rick Winfield · From: Pickin' beneath the Palmettos

My SUGGESTION would be for a Carter SD10. Weighs in at 32lbs, only 5lbs more than the S10. 3 pedals and 5 knees, will keep you busy forever. A lot of C6 type music can be played on E9th. There is an enormous amount of learning material available for this type of set-up, then later....if and when, you can purchase the Uni or ext E9th, KNOWING WHERE YOU'RE HEADED.
I started on 73 Marlen D10. Moved into "comfortable" Carter SD10.
Now I play a D12,(ext E9 & ext C6) with a much better perspective, since I've worked my way thru the "basics"
Rick

Michael Douchette · From: Gallatin, TN (deceased)

I'll say it again... Zum Stage One. Lightweight, pro sound, 3+4...

http://www.stageonesteelguitars.com/

Listen to the sound clips... Winking

_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.

http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html

(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I also think an S-10 is fine, but after reading Rick Schmidt's post, I would suggest you at least take a careful look at this guitar that's for sale on the forum right now - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=178497

Zumsteel 12-string currently set up in a non-standard tuning, but has all the parts you'd need to convert to either extended E9 or E9/B6 universal, the price is insanely low, and these are not hard guitars to work on. Since you're close to Jim Palenscar's shop, I think it'd be worth it to talk to him about switching it over to whatever setup you want. You could start with extended E9 to learn on, and then switch it over to universal whenever you want. I don't see how extended E9 would be any problem - it's just like E9 except for the two lower strings.

If I wasn't totally guitar-poor right now, that steel would be mine. I have a black one just like it, set up universal, and even with several other great steels in the stable, it plays so great, stays in tune so well, and sounds so good that it is still my main go-to guitar. Zum's are highly desirable, totally pro caliber, hold their value well, and the only reason I can think of that this guitar is still available is the non-standard setup.

Just a thought, I don't know the seller or guitar specifically, but to many people, a Zum is the dream machine and I can tell you I love mine.

James Allison · From: California, USA

I was in that same position 2 years ago. I ended up buying a new MSA studio pro S12 w/8+5. Jim set it up for me and after a small problem with the height of the legs I was off and running. I've been at it for a for a little over a year and played my first 4 gigs two months ago. I sucked but I learned a lot. Jim and his shop are an amazing resource and w/o his advice I would have been lost. I've played for a living for all my life and the knowledge of music certainly was a positive in this new learning process. I also had the pleasure of playing with some steel legends and could not have been more blown away when I heard Rick Schmidt at a little bar in Oceanside. What a monster player he is . Good luck

Will Jaffe · From: California, USA

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Rick, I'll bet that Carter is sweet. I'll be buying a steel in the 20 pound range. My priority is light weight, tone, then playability. Really all equal priorities.

Which has me very interested in the Zum Stage One.

Michael the clips sound very good. I have a Nashville 112. Wish I could try one myself, but the price is so easy, it's not much of a risk. I spoke to Doug yesterday as he was heading out for a few weeks. With Aluminum legs only about 22 pounds. Anyone got a used one? Should I not be concerned that the setup can not be changed?

Dave, I looked over that ad the other day. I see how lots of guys are droolling over it. The setup sounds interesting and does not put me off. Also sounds like the seller is temporarily stalled on selling it. I'll bet it's a great axe.

Hey James, yeah I also heard Rick at that same O'side bar. Great you had Jim to set you up. Are you playing locally now?
Yes, Rick, I agree with James, you are a beastly monster.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Will,The GFI is a great choice,I have a friend who owns a SD-10 3+4 and it is a great guitar.
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Another vote for Jim palenscar ! As far as tunings go keep it simple at least until you know what you don't know.
_________________
Bob

Will Jaffe · From: California, USA

Stu, I hope your liking of the GFI has nothing to do with licking paint chips off of Chinese toys continuously since the mid 50's!

Bob, I am going with E9. At least until I change my mind again, or if the right used axe shows up.

Hey Jim, you've got lots of fans here.

Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

SD10 GFI All The Way. SONNY.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Will,Not influenced by the paint chips at all,I like the taste of them ,it brings me back to a kinder more gentle place.GFI's are probably one of the most consistent guitars made.Jim Palenscar is a true Guru of the steel guitar,pay attention when he speaks he's got this thing figured out. Winking

_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"If I was to add a pedal or have a knee lever work with the B6 part of the E9 tuning,"

Me? On a 10 string, I'd lose the D string move up the B, and add a low E. Pull the B string up to D with a knee lever like on my Uni. I miss that low root on my S-10s.

Michael Douchette · From: Gallatin, TN (deceased)

Will, the setup cannot be changed on the CS, either. There is a lot of music in the Stage One pedal setup, as is. It was setup with the setup I use, anyway, so it was not an issue.

The one thing I would say... get it without a neck. Have the fretboard fixed right to the body. There is a difference in tone with string height; just like on a straight guitar, the higher you can stand the action, the better the tone is.
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.

http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html

(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/

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