Fox 5F8B -- TONE MONSTER

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

In the late 70s I got tired of carrying Fender tube amps, which I'd used religiously since I started playing music in the 50s. I bought a Peavey Session 400 and was delighted at the headroom and clean tone. I also liked the 'voicing' of the amp -- how the tone controls worked together to dial in the sound I was looking for. It was hard to set that amp 'wrong'.

Since that time I've had friends who insist on carrying 80# of Twin around with them and still run out of headroom in large venues. They sound great -- I love the warmth of tubes -- but a steel is more demanding than a Tele. In the ensuing 30 years, I've tried every amp out there and none of them did the trick for me. I don't like anything from the Session 500 forward -- had a Nvl 112 and sold it. Closest thing to perfection I'd found was the late 60's - early 70's Standel Custom 15, but even on this wonderful solid state amp, the highs and high mids got 'crispy' at times and I missed the way that tubes reproduce highs.

What if I told you that I have an amp that
* weighs 46 pounds -- about the same as a Nashville 112
* outpowers a Twin
* when you add a 4 ohm external speaker you DOUBLE the power
* is based on the 1959 Fender Bassman -- a SACRED amp to many steel players
* is voiced perfectly for the cleanest, purest steel guitar sound I have ever heard

If you've been following the 'haps' around here you may already know that our buddy Ken Fox is building these as we speak and I'm here to tell you they are something special.

I just turned it on, stuck a mic in front of it and recorded a few soundbytes -- here are some examples
http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/FoxEmmons1.mp3
http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/FoxEmmons2.mp3
http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/FoxEmmons3.mp3

More information on this page
http://foxvintageamps.com/classic_green_003.htm

Yeah, I know -- THEY AREN'T CHEAP -- but they can't be. They are hand wired using the highest quality components available and Ken is not getting rich off of this venture. It's worth every penny. It's the REAL DEAL.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Sounds great!
Have you had it out yet?
Is there enough headroom before distortion?
Which Sica speaker does it have?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jim,
I've played two gigs so far -- one on the Emmons; one on the Show Pro. Both were smaller venues. Volume never exceeded 4. Have never gotten close to distortion. For a larger room I'd just carry a Nvl 115 cabinet which boosts the output to around 200 tube watts. I have an outside gig in a few weeks (we can do that in Feb-Mar in Florida Laughing

)
-- I'll let you know.

Spkr is the 250 watt RMS SICA Premium Neo
I'm very impressed with that speaker.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Thanks for the info Larry. Ayeh won't be doing any outdoor gigs here in VT for a while. Just did one at Mad River Glenn ski are base lodge - brrrrrr!

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 19 Feb 2010 6:14 am

200 watts out of four 6L6's?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I would be way over my head trying to explain the electronics (I don't really even understand how an amp works) but the simple explanation Ken gave me was that the transformer allows a single 4ohm load to generate 90-100W and, when an external 4ohm load is plugged in, it is as loud as a single 15 with 200W behind it.

I am not an electronics guy -- don't even play one on TV -- so you'll have to get the full scoop from Ken Fox. All I know is that it sure sounds sweet and LOUD.

Maybe Ken will see this and expound a bit.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

This should explain that well, from an earlier post I did:

I should remember all this, but never was able to! Thank goodness for the internet and folks sharing their knowledge with us, cause that's where I found it! Ever wonder how a 4x10 Bassman gets so much volume at 30 to 40 watts? Below is the answer! Ever wonder why your 200 watt amp is not twice as loud as a 100 watt amp? Then read on!

Here we go:

Sound level is measured in terms of decibels (dB). Volume is referred to as sound pressure level (SPL). In tests, the average person can detect a 3dB change in volume. 3dB is just enough difference that you can barely tell the volume has changed. A 10 dB change in SPL is perceived as twice as loud. With that in mind we can move on to what is required in terms of power (measured in watts) for an amp to create a 3dB change.

Amplifier output -

It takes 2 times the power from an amp to change the volume 3dB. In other words if an amp is producing 1 watt of power it needs to increase to 2 watts of power to make a 3dB change. This is a ratio of 2:1. By the same token if the amp is producing 50 watts of power it will need to increase to 100 watts to produce a 3dB change. 100 watts would take 200 watts for that same change.

How much power would it take to Increase the SPL 10dB? It will take 10 times the power to increase the SPL by 10dB! In other words, if your amp was producing 50 watts of power you would need to increase it to 500 watts to achieve a 10dB increase. (fig A&B) As you can see it takes a lot of power to get a small increase in volume.

Number of Speakers is a factor that effects volume. This concept is not as simple as it first appears. If we double the number of speakers we will increase the SPL by 3dB. Here is an example. If you have a 50 watt amp with one 12" speaker and you add another 12" speaker you will get the magic 3dB increase. You would have the same SPL as a 100 watt amp with one 12" speaker. To get the next 3dB increase we need to double the speakers again so we would need four 12" speakers. Having 4 speakers will give us a 6dB increase in SPL compared to 1 speaker. Sounds like the same system as the power ratio above doesn't it. Here is were the complex part comes in. If we double the 4 speakers to 8 speakers you would think that there would be a 9dB increase in SPL compared to one speaker, right? Nope. What we get is only a 6dB increase compared to one speaker. Huh? We have now introduced a new factor to this equation...Phase Cancellation. (fig C) In short the distance between the speakers causes the sound to reach your ears, from some of the speakers, at a different time . This has the effect of canceling some of the sound. So...More speakers are better up to a point.
Speaker efficiency also plays a role in the optimizing of SPL. How well a speaker can convert electrical energy into mechanical energy is called speaker efficiency. If you look at the specification sheet of a speaker it will contain information of this type. It is described as, "Output measured at one watt - at one meter", and then a dB value is given. What this means is a one watt signal is played through the speaker and then its SPL is measured at a distance from the speaker of one meter. Because we know about the 3dB increase concept described above we can compare the SPL of different speakers to determine which one can produce the most SPL. The larger the SPL number the more efficient and louder the speaker will be. It will usually be less expensive to get a more efficient speaker(s), than a larger power amp, to produce the same or greater SPL.
Matching speaker impedance to the amplifier is important in optimizing output power and in protecting the amplifier from damage. Amplifiers are designed to produce a certain amount of wattage based on the amount of resistance that the speaker(s) provide. The resistance to an AC current in speakers is referred to as impedance. Impedance is measured in ohms and is represented by the letter Z. If you look on the back of an amp where the speaker connection is you may see something like - 100 watts into 8 ohms ~ 175 watts into 4 ohms ~ 4 ohm minimum. What this means is if you have speaker(s) with a TOTAL impedance (referred to as load in this application) of 8 ohms connected to the amp, the amp can produce 100 watts. If the total load is 4 ohms the amp can produce 175 watts. It is not recommended that you have less than a 4 ohm load connected to the amp. Please note that if you have less than a 4 ohm load, in this example, amplifier damage can occur due to excessive heat build-up in the amp (note from Ken here, this applies to transistor power amp and is not always true there as well, as some transistor amps have current limiting to lower the power at lower than usual loads)

How do we know what the total load will be? Lets look at how the impedance changes when we wire speakers together. A pair of speakers can be wired together in two different ways: in series or in parallel. (fig. D) Depending upon the way the speakers are wired will effect their total impedance. See the formulas in (fig. E) In series wiring all the values are simply added together. The parallel wiring formula is more complex especially if the values are not the same.
In sound systems it is not recommended that you mix speakers with different impedances. If all the speakers have the same value then here is a shortcut to the parallel formula: Take the impedance of one speaker and divide by the number of speakers. Another rule-of-thumb in parallel systems is that the total impedance will always be less than the smallest impedance.
Now that we know how to calculate total impedance lets apply it to the amplifier example above. It is important to note that the jacks on the back of most amps that allow more than one speaker to be connected, per channel, are wired in parallel! Our example is a mono amplifier. If it were a stereo amp then each channel would be treated separately. We can connect one 8 ohm speaker and get 100 watt capability from the amp, one 4 ohm speaker and get 175 watt capability, or two 8 ohm speakers (in parallel 8÷2=4) and also get 175 watt capability. If we connected two 4 ohm speakers however, we would get a 2 ohm load (4÷2=2 ohms) and possible damage of the amp could occur.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Another magic way to get more SPL out of an amp is to use a very efficient speaker. A speaker with a 3db more SPL than another speaker will produce the same volume as the less efficient speaker with only 1/2 the power applied. That is why a JBL, EV, SICA, Peavey BW and other premium speakers are the best way to get the most SPL (sound pressure level) from your amps available wattage.

Basically what we get with the 4 ohm extension cab is a 3db SPL increase with the 100 watt amp. This is the same as a 200 watt amp with 1 of the same type speakers in it!

Also note I rated my amp at 92 watts, clean with no distortion. A 100 watt Twin will just make 80 watts on my test setup. A 135 watt Twin will get a clean 100 watts on my test rig.

If you can get by with an 80 watt transistor amp with a medium grade speaker you will have no issue with my amp at stage volumes for sure!

Will be in Saluda giving the amps a workout this week end. We have already had them at the Jacksonville show and no issues with volume or distortion.

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 19 Feb 2010 4:00 pm

So, my 5F8A with two D-120's must be putting out around 250 watts? Winking

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

A true 5F8A is an 80 watt amp. You are getting the same volume as 160 watt amp with one 12" speaker. There is no increase in wattage for the amp when you add an extra speaker, just an increase in SPL. The other way to increase SPL in increased wattage.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

I sent serial #0001 home with Tommy Butler to play on Broadway in Nashville. We will see how it does with a rowdy Nashville band when he gets moving around later today! Congrats also on being the new owner of the very first of this line of amps, Tommy!

Jaclyn Jones · From: Texas, USA

I have not had a chance to record it yet but I will this weekend. My new Fox steel amp has exceeded in every way. The extra inputs have made it possible to only carry one amp instead of 2. Even with the steel, guitar and Roland Gr20 plugged in it still sounds great. Power to spare and clear as a bell.
PS I can't play them all at once, but not for lack of trying. Razz

_________________
http://www.myspace.com/jaclynjones
http://www.youtube.com/user/jackiej1950
Lots of guitars, banjos, mandos and a Mullen G2-D10,PAC D10, 1966 Marlen D10,Line6 x3 Pro, Peavey Powerslide, Michael Kelly Dobro and a "Fox Vintage Amp" model 5F8A. Oh Yea, a very patient husband.

Tommy R. Butler · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Sure did Ken!! Drove all day to get home a did a 10p-2am last nite. I carted the amp down, setter up and away we went! Now the rooms I played was on Broadway and it's a hard room to play!! Seems u just can't get a good tone in there. I sat up got my reverb pedal set and man that's when I realized how good this amp sounded!! I have never got a good sound in that room and boom there it was. The guitar player sat up right next to me. His amp right beside mine. He was using a 66 blackface that had been modded and he had a boost pedal on his pedal board. Ken's amp had more power. I could hear myself over him just fine at anytime. Granted no amp there has a mic on it so it's all amp volume. That amp smoked that twin and I pushed it hard for four hours strait with out a break. No problems at all. The amp was turned way up and did not distort AT ALL.... It was amazing and by far the best sounding amp I have ever had on a live gig. That Sica speaker is a great speaker. I wouldn't believe in putting anyother speaker in it!!! What a combo!!! What an amp!!! It's worth it! With this amp u don't need rack gear.....! I'm gonna be showing it around Nashville. Thanx Ken for building what I consider to be the best sounding steel amp ever made. The onlyother combo I've heard that is even remotely close is a Fox Modded Nashville with one of Ken's SICA speakers.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Well, I've played about a half dozen gigs with it and finally got the volume up to 4. It kicks butt with all three of my guitars.

This weekend we're playing an outside shindig with Dickey Betts & Great Southern in Sarasota. That may push it a bit harder.

I just tried the external 15 for the first time, here at home. I also mounted a passive DI box semi-permanently in the back of the amp and ran it through my studio board and monitors -- all seems to work well. We'll see how it does outside.

Believe me, POWER IS NO ISSUE with this amp. Incidentally, a Tele sounds GREAT though it.

I'll let y'all know how the outside gig goes.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Another nice review from Texas:

Ken,

You don't know me... but my name is Bob Ruth and I play in a band with
one of your customers, Jackie Jones who just received one of your amps.
I'm sorry to say that I don't know the model number but she tells me it
is an offshoot of an older Twin somewhere in the 5Fx range with your
special updates. I would imagine that you get enough feedback on your
amps but, after last night, I simply could not let my words go unsaid.

I have always enjoyed the sound of my Fender HR DeVille. While it does
have some shortcomings it has kept me pretty happy. Last night, Jackie
debuted her new amp with the band. It was nothing short of incredible.
I am an electronics tech type as well and do a little of my own
tinkering (don't worry.... I wont touch it... she wont LET me!!!!!!! )
so I am aware of what goes into these amps. That amp of hers has a
voice that I found so unique. It is loud but it is a smooth, present,
full, rich loudness ..... all of the good qualities. No harshness, it
had plenty of bright "presence" in it's voicing but nowhere CLOSE to
harsh or (what I call ) "tinkly". What it did for guitar is
astonishing.... but when she put the banjo on it.... I could hear it....
the full RANGE of it... better than ever before. Then came the steel.
The effects of the abundance of headroom made it clean, clear, and very
rich sounding.

It is not often that a piece of equipment snaps my head around like this
one..... but I felt so compelled to write you a note to let you
know.... your heart is showing !!!!!!!!

The answer can only be that you put something into these amps that is
much MUCH more than what a mass assembly line can do. You love what you
do and it shows. It is fortunate for you and the world that you are
involved in an endeavor that is so dear to you..... you do it well.

Thank you so much for your creation and many blessings for a bright
future ahead,

Bob Ruth
The Silver Wings Band
Houston, TX

Chuck Martin · From: Clifton, Virginia

You guys are killing me with these reviews. Looks like its time for me to start selling some gear and saving up to buy a new Fox "Tone Monster" (as Larry named this topic).

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Ken,

I love what you're doing with this amp of yours. Beautiful approach. Tone heaven for sure.

Brad

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Well, I played that outside gig. You've never seen as many vintage Supers, Twins, Marshalls -- the back line was full of powerful tube amps. Our local guitar heroes were out in force. Dan Toler, guitarist and local legend, who was with the Allman Brothers and Dickey Betts & Great Southern, told me how 'big and fat and warm' the steel sounded -- just made my day.

I did use the external 15 -- a BW loaded Nvl 115 cabinet. The amp was miked, so I probably didn't need the external speaker, but it looked good next to those half stacks and blackfaces.

My volume never exceeded 4 -- plenty of stage volume and headroom. I played my Fessy and it KICKED BUTT as usual.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Mike Neer · From: NJ

The amp looks and sounds fantastic, at least in Larry's clips. Would love to have the opportunity to try one out someday.

Will you be at the TSGA, Ken?
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Yes Mike. You can play the amp in the MSA room, one in the Show Pro room and one (with extension cab) on the main stage for the players.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Thanks Brad! Us tube guys gotta stick together!

Love what you have done as well. Lots of great stuff out there with TC Furlong (another super product and great guy to deal with), Mike Brown (my Peavey hero and great contributor to the cause as well), John Lemay, Tom Bradshaw, Jim Evans and don't forget Walker products. These guys have dedicated their time and talents to the steel guitar world and done a superb job. I am sure I forgot someone there, but I appreciate all the folks who devote their time and talent to helping others.

I will also be helping Jim Evans with a Friday and Saturday (1:00 PM) seminar in the Telonics room on "How to set your amp". See ya there!!!

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Ken
Didn't I read that you don't put efx loops in your amps? What is your advice for someone like me who likes a bit of delay effect in a live performance setting? Wouldn't a parallel efx loop in the amp sound better than running the entire signal thru a stomp box?

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

I am using my pedals straight into the amp (RV-7 (Digitech reverb and a Digitech DL- Cool

. Sound is awesome, no background hiss or noise from these pedals at all.

Larry is using another setup and I hope will comment.

Jack Conyer has been using his MPX-1 here straight into the amp as well.

The amp has two channels. One is a bright channel, it could be used for the effects and the normal channel as a dry channel. The "bright" channel has a small cap on the back of the volume pot that can easily be removed, making for two identical channels/

That way the guitar could be run into a dry channel and the effects could get its signal from the volume pedals second output (if available) or from the 2nd input of the normal channel down to the effects and back to the second channel. Basically making that the effects loop with the second volume control now acting as the effects return!

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

What we have below would give you a parallel effects loop. If you have a left and right output you can run those into jacks 1 and 2 of the "bright " channel. These two inputs will provide signal mixing of the left and right channels thru the on-board 68K resistors that are in series with each input jack and prior to the tube's input grid.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

EB,
I haven't felt the need for an fx loop. I'm running guitar to VP to 10 band graphic to Boss GT-8 to the amp. The amp is absolutely silent when the gain structure is correct -- no boost through the EQ or GT-8.

I do like the graphic EQ sitting beside me. When a room fills up it's nice to easily tweak the EQ. Most of the time it is just flat but when I need it, it's there.

The GT-8 gives me most every stomp box Boss has ever had and it allows me to adjust reverb, delay, chorus, and distortion with knobs right on the top of the unit. Most of the time it's just a little 'verb and a touch of delay, but all that other stuff is there for when I'm feeling frisky. Very Happy

I'll say it again: THIS AMP IS SOMETHING SPECIAL.

Here's what the Show Pro sounds like through it (click here)
(5Mb mp3 file of a great wood body / wood neck guitar with my sloppy playing through the Fox 5F8B)
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

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