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Topic: Beginner's Questions re: E9 Strings 2 & 9 |
Reed Ohrbom
From:
Hemet, California, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2010 8:05 pm |
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I'm a long time guitar player, but recently fell "through the looking glass" into the wonderful world of PSG. So, as I'm beginning to absorb the E9 tuning, and program it into my head, 2 questions keep nagging me:
First; Why is string 2, D#, out of sequence, pitch-wise, from the rest of the strings?
Second; Why are strings 2 and 9 not tuned the same? E.g. both to D#, with both strings lowered to D and C# in half stops, with the RKR? Or, if string 9 tuned to D makes a lot of sense, why not tune string 2 to D also?
My initial inclination is to tune string 9 to D#, just like string 2. That way, at any fret, you would have several grips of the full V chord, straight across the bar, without using any pedals or levers.
Although I've looked at several tunings of the "greats", I haven't seen any so far that use D# on 9, so there must be a reason it stays at D, and string 2 works best left tuned to D#.
I've got a good handle on music theory in general, so am looking forward to as much explanation as you guys want to throw at me, even if it gets complex. Thanks; Reed    |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2010 9:10 pm
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First: Disclaimer--I don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as any of the greats!
But I go a different way from what you've spoken of: I tune both 9 and 2 to D, not D#. RKR RAISES 2 to D#, and LOWERS 9 to C#. (Jimmie Crawford used this setup, and so did Terry Bethel, at least as of the mid-70's, when Winnie Winston's Pedal Steel Guitar: A Manual of Style came out). (I lower 2 to C# on another lever, in my case LKV.)
For one thing, this makes the full 10-string tuning an "E9", not "E9 Chromatic"--but the "chromatic" note (2nd string D#) is still easily available by holding RKR. All the notes people with more "standard" "E9 Chromatic tuning" get from these two strings are still available, but the advantages are:
You can have both D's at the same time, without having to hit a half-stop precisely to have them in tune with each other (this serves both for using those D's as 7ths or as roots);
You can have D# on the 2nd string and C# on the 9th string at the same time, which gives very nice chord voicings. (Expanded when you have the option of adding 1/2 step lowers on 3 & 6 ("G" lowers).
All that said, I occasionally would like to be able to have a D# on the 9th string, too! |
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Steve Norman
From:
Seattle Washington, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2010 10:40 pm
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So your major I chord can be found on strings 3,4,5,6,8,10. Usually you only play 2 or 3 of those notes at a time. Using pedals A, B, and C and your most of your knee levers gives you various other chords in the key without moving the bar on those same strings.The remaining strings: 1,2,7, and 9 are sometimes called chromatic strings, as they fill in gaps not covered by the various pedal combos on your main strings (3,4,5,6,8,10)
string 2 as it is gives you a major 7 with 3,4,5,6,8,10. Lower it 1/2 for a 7 chord. String 9 with 3,4,5,6,7,10 gives a 7 chord.
If you are in the key of E, strings 1,2 played together are part of your Bmajor triad, so can be used over a V chord without moving your bar. Its out of the way that way, being a very wrong note to hit by accident. Same with string 9.
When playing a minor chord on 3,4,5,6,8,10 with your A pedal down, adding string 2 in makes a nice chromatic sounding walk down.
When your picking gets faster, there are very fast licks available to you on strings 1,2,3,and 4 that are much easier due to the in out picking pattern that results from the alternating tuning.
AS far as the lower strings, your grip spreads out down there, and having the strings be in out would be a hinderance.
If you have a knee lever that drops string 9, hit string 9,8, and 6, with AB pedals down, and drop string 9 to resolve with a nice amen sound.
You will find over time those strings and the associated Knee levers are invaluable for breaking up the monotony of relying on the main strings, as well as coloring chords and adding in unison licks and counterpoint.
Later you will be moving the bar more to add feeling, and having those strum across V chords wont be much use to you.
Hope that helps some.
_________________
GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 2 Feb 2010 11:14 pm
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I like lowering the D# to D and then to C# it has a nice feel going down i use that sequence alot in my playing and wouldn't do without it, just learn the E9th Chromatic way and you'll find alot of use for that string couple with string #1...in my opinion of course, John Hughey used to use alot the 2nd string lowering D# to C# in unison with other strings in his playing 
Oh,,,and also if you have a Knee lever that raises that 2nd string to E...you can go from E,D#,D,C# ...that's also a nice sequence. 
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 3 Feb 2010 1:19 am
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| Quote: |
| Why is string 2, D#, out of sequence, pitch-wise, from the rest of the strings? |
actually the D# or Eb is not out of sequence since it's the major 7 tone of the E major scale
perhaps i'm not bringing you anything new Reed, but
the E9 nasville tuning is 2 chords in 1 : E & B
so that "pesky" 2nd string is the major third tone of B
it goes along w: string 1 F# which is the fifth tone of B
Now the D on string 2 gives you a dom7th or minor 7th when playing in E or it's a minor third when playing in B
| Quote: |
| Why are strings 2 and 9 not tuned the same? |
the fact that they are not tuned the same is obviously for a specific reason
D on string 9 gives that dom7th or minor 7th tone on the low end
(Lord knows we need the deep end on E9)
it also gives you the root if you move up a whole step from the 0 position
ie : G on fret 5 instead of fret 3
by lowering string 9 a half step, you get the 6th tone which here again gives you some good harmony on the low end
at fret 0, with pedals A&B engaged & having the 9th string lower you get the major third tone on the low end of your A chord
raise string 9 back up a half step (D) & you have the fourth tone for a sus 4 chord
just some basics Reed
perhaps you've got this figured out already
if so, good on you ! |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2010 7:22 pm
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I agree with CrowBear. Don't change anything. There are lots of reasons for both the D and the D#, both melodic and chordal. And there are lots of reasons for the first two strings being out of sequence, as Steve said. Don't change anything; they are there for a reason. Just learn to use them!
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 4:16 am
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| CrowBear Schmitt wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Why is string 2, D#, out of sequence, pitch-wise, from the rest of the strings? |
actually the D# or Eb is not out of sequence since it's the major 7 tone of the E major scale... |
I think he was referring to the fact that the pitch of string 1 (and 2), are lower than string three.
As CrowBear states there is an overlap of two chords on a 10 string E9. This is where the strings 1 and 2 come in.
Try playing strings 10, 7, 5, 2, and 1 open(B). Then 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3 (E).
The 9th string D is either a 4th in the B chord, or a minor (dominant) 7th in E.
Clete |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 5:03 am
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Don't change anything until you have a much fuller understanding of the existing tuning! If, after, a lot of study and reflection, you decide on a slight change (as others have done) then you'll know you've arrived at the decision in a logical manner, but those two strings have endless potential just as they are - I promise!
I know how you feel - I had similar thoughts back in the '70s when, as a pro guitarist, I questioned the E9 tuning when first confronted with it, but I came to see why it was the way it was.
Have patience, and things will reveal themselves.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 8:03 am
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Hey Reed, I was a working lead guitarist before I seriously took up pedal steel in the late seventies or so. I alway picked a little on one just for fun but never really got going much until I finally realized that being the lazy b@$t@rd I was if I played steel I wouldn't have to stand up for five or six hours a night and it required less exertion than being a drummer.........
I've evolved my copedent over the years to incorporate most of the guitar stuff I play and tend to approach it like a lead guitar instead of a steel. I tune my 2nd and 9th strings to C# which I find more useful and raise the 2nd string to both D and D# on separate levers. My 9th string is also raised to D and lowered to C. The ninth string is nice at C# as when you're playing with the E strings lowered a half in the B6th mode you basically have the first three notes of the scale on strings 10, 9 & 8 and you can use them in the same manner as you use strings 8, 7 & 6 in E9..... All that said, the standard way is probably the best to start with as all instruction material would be in the normal tuning. Then later if you wanted to adapt it to something else it'd be your choice. Also, I play a 12 string, mostly because being a guitar player first I couldn't stand to not have that low E string on the bottom........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 8:36 am
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I have been trying really hard for a full year or more to incorporate these strings into my playing and have had very little success doing so outside of the bedroom. C pedal too. I have started threads here and received a great wealth of info and suggestions. Ive had lessons devoted to these strings, levers and pedals. I practice licks using them every day. I finally understand their usage in chords (somewhat). And yet playing live I just cannot incorporate them into my playing without crashing and burning. I feel like this is severely limiting my playing and its driving me nuts that I cant seem to break thru despite considerable effort.
I gotta say, the second string seems most useful when lowered and Ive often wondered why not just tune it lower but its part of the harmonized major scale so...theres my answer. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 9:07 am
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| Ben Jones wrote: |
| I gotta say, the second string seems most useful when lowered and Ive often wondered why not just tune it lower but its part of the harmonized major scale so...theres my answer. |
If you tune the second string lower, but have a change to raise it to D# on a lever, you still have the harmonized major scale thing.
JMO, but it seems to me that it makes little difference whether you tune low and raise or tune high and lower. You still have the same notes available! I personally find music calls for the D# and D notes about equally as often. When you get going with using the second string you'll wind up using the different notes regularly either way--it's a tossup which way you go. If you tune other than "standard" and want to play tab, when the tab says to play the "open" second string you'd just hit the lever, and vice versa. No big deal, if you ask me. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 10:17 am Re: Beginner's Questions re: E9 Strings 2 & 9
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| Reed Ohrbom wrote: |
My initial inclination is to tune string 9 to D#, just like string 2. That way, at any fret, you would have several grips of the full V chord, straight across the bar, without using any pedals or levers.
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As you start to think more and more like a pedal steel player you'll think harmonized scale runs, cool unison lick moves and transitional types of intervals, often using two strings only. (As others have said.) If you're going for that more traditional use of pedal steel sound, leave the big chord sounds to the 6 stringer or the piano I say! Not very often I pluck 3 strings at once.
The use of those strings are just starting to come into focus for me and I'm having so much fun with them, I want everyone to! |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 5:56 pm Uses for the D and D# strings
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Here's an example of a ninth string (D) melodic lick: Engage the knee lever that lowers the Es to Eb and hold it there. Then pick strings 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, and 5 in that order. That's a B6 chord (in open position) with a blue note, great for country, blues, swing, rockabilly, etc. You can make it B7 by adding the B pedal that raises the sixth string.
Here's an example of a ninth string chord: Press pedals A and B. Pick strings 9, 7, 6, and 5. That's a D Major 7th (in open position). Roll off the B pedal to make it a D6...
Here's an example of a use for the second string D#. Pick strings 5, 2, and 1. That's a B major triad in open position. Lower the second string to D and it becomes B minor. So you can play every major chord and every minor chord on strings 5, 2, and 1!
Leave the second string at D# and the ninth string at D. The people who designed these things really knew what they were doing, and don't let any confused or frustrated beginner tell you otherwise. Those strings are there for a reason; don't change anything yet, even if you are never going to use pedal steel tab. You don't want to have to engage a pedal or a knee lever to get either the D# or the D -- you will want them there all the time, believe me!
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Steve Norman
From:
Seattle Washington, USA
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2010 11:25 pm Re: Uses for the D and D# strings
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| Leave the second string at D# and the ninth string at D. The people who designed these things really knew what they were doing, and don't let any confused or frustrated beginner tell you otherwise. Those strings are there for a reason; don't change anything yet, even if you are never going to use pedal steel tab. You don't want to have to engage a pedal or a knee lever to get either the D# or the D -- you will want them there all the time, believe me! |
How about the D on the 2nd string, Barry? Would you say "you don't want to have to engage a knee lever to get" that? What about the A notes on strings 3 & 6? Don't you "want them there all the time"? Do you "not want to have to engage a pedal to get" those?
You can't have two different notes on the same string without one of them being on a pedal or knee lever. If both notes are important, what is the rationale for insisting that one in particular has to be the "open" note?
Somehow I'm surprised at your advocacy of orthodoxy in this case. Some of your other posts have given me the impression you were open to "thinking outside the box".
I have no beef with the "standard" tuning. After many months of obsessive study and analysis of the possibilities prior to the purchase of my second "pro" model PSG in 1984, I arrived at the conclusion that the configuration for the 2nd string that I described in my earlier post would suit me best, and I've been very happy with my choice ever since. While I would recommend considering it to anyone, if asked, I would never say someone else was making a mistake by adopting the standard setup. And by the same token it bugs me when others imply it's a mistake not to adopt the standard setup.
| Quote: |
Here's an example of a use for the second string D#. Pick strings 5, 2, and 1. That's a B major triad in open position. Lower the second string to D and it becomes B minor. So you can play every major chord and every minor chord on strings 5, 2, and 1!
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(emphasis added)
Exactly the same is true with a second string D and a raise to D#. What you cited isn't an example of using the D#; it's an example of using both D and D# on the second string.
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| Here's an example of a ninth string chord: Press pedals A and B. Pick strings 9, 7, 6, and 5. That's a D Major 7th (in open position). Roll off the B pedal to make it a D6... |
Just a copy-edit here--I believe you meant roll off the A pedal. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2010 6:05 am
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Sorry, Brint. You are right about the A pedal rolloff -- late night lack of proofreading...
And you are right that whatever anyone gets used to and enjoys is legitimate. It's just that the standard tuning does have advantages and it seems logical to me that someone starting out should learn how to use the standard tuning before thinking he or she could improve it. I don't think anyone really understands why E9th tuning is the way it is until they have wrestled with it for a while, so I would recommend that a newbie get used to playing it rather than spend time trying to redesign it. But once someone starts to understand how and why copedants do what they do, then everything is fair game. Sorry to appear conservative -- it is not an adjective that is usually applied to me.
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Feb 2010 9:04 am
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Barry wrote:
"I don't think anyone really understands why E9th tuning is the way it is until they have wrestled with it for a while..."
That's exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.
If there are master players who still play the commonly-accepted norm, then a beginner challenges those standards at his peril, and probably only questions it because he simply doesn't yet understand it.
Altering the tuning once you've explored things is fine, but not until time has been spent.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Last edited by Roger Rettig on 6 Feb 2010 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Feb 2010 9:07 am
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I'd like to add that the logic surrounding the 1st and 2nd string tuning came to me quite quickly, but it took longer (and a quick lesson from Jimmie Crawford!) to teach me how much there is to be had from that D string 9th! I still read posts on here by players who have yet to 'get it' with the 9th.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 6 Feb 2010 9:21 am Snowed in...
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Roger, I'm snowed in and nothing to do but practice...
You were saying, the great Jimmie Crawford's lesson on the 9th string use was?  |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Feb 2010 9:38 am
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Well, it was after he discovered that my ZB didn't have a knee-lever lowering my 9th string D note.
We were on tour together and I'd sit and enjoy him just noodling away and playing some mind-blowing stuff on E9 at sound-check. He played one particular thing - a rich sequence of major 7th and major 9th chords with all the depth that one usually expects from C6th. I begged him to show me how, and it was then he said:
"You're not lowering your 9th??? You HAVE to lower the 9th!"
A week later it was done and he showed my some decidedly un-E9th-like stuff! That day I realised that it was my favourite tuning, and so it remains to this day.
Thank you, Jimmie - you opened my eyes! I had been getting a bit frustrated at what I'd thought were harmonic limitations on that neck - how wrong I was!
Essentially one has to use the open D string as the root note of the chord - then, with bar movement and knees and pedals, see where it takes you.
If you won't listen to me, then check out Tommy White and his amazing intro to his E9 instruction tape. The D string is the key to a lot of that.
All this is far removed from Reed's original question. Sorry, Reed, but that's the Forum for you - topic drift, however well-intentioned, is the order of the day!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 6 Feb 2010 9:55 am Thank you...
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| Thanks Roger, appreciate that. I don't think it was that much of a subject drift. Still about the 9th string, how and why... If so, I to am sorry Reed. Still good gouge. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 10 Feb 2010 2:09 pm
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Here's a cool C6th sounding chord scale on E9 using the 9th string as the root and using combinations of the B+C pedals, the 2/9 string lower lever, the B lower lever, and the E raise lever:
Use strings 9 and 4,5 and 6 for all chords (3 can be added as well).
1. 3rd fret B+C only = Fmaj7
2. 6th fret 2/9 lower lever only= Gm7
3. 8th fret 2/9 lever only = Am7
4. 8th fret B+C only = Bbmaj7
5. 10th fret B+C and B lower lever = C7
6. 13th fret 2/9 lower lever only = Dm7
7. 14th fret E raise only = Edim
8. 15th fret B+C = Fmaj7
This is a pure diatonic chord scale.
Clete |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 10 Feb 2010 2:24 pm
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Clete
That's a good illustration of some of what can be achieved using the 9th string. I believe that the D note opens up the tuning.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2010 3:26 pm
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Roger, it's great that Jimmie opened your eyes to the value of the 9th string with its lower--I couldn't agree more; for me it's essential--but as I noted above, he tuned his 2nd string to D, raised it on RKR with the same lever that lowered the 9th, and lowered 2 on a different lever. I never met him, but I studied on that and decided it was for me! Maybe if you'd had more time with him...  |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 10 Feb 2010 4:09 pm
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| I'm just gonna leave mine alone until I get this 7th chord stuff figured out using either string two lowered a half tone or string 9 straight up. |
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