pickup placement

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

I did a seach for this but didn't come up with any information but can't believe it hasn't been discussed in the past.
Is there a physics reason why pickups are placed where they are having to do with the amplitude of the string? The reason I ask is I just aquired a one of a kind SB Pro-III with a 24 3/8" scale length and it's pickups are mounted the same distance from the changer as you would expect of a Sho-Bud. If the frequency of the string along its length is important to the sound I would think it would be slightly further away from the changer.
I don't know enough about this subject to talk intelligently so just curious if this has been discussed before in order to add to my education?

Jason Hull · Posted 4 Feb 2010 3:09 pm **pickup position**

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Oh Yes Jason, as a long time six string player there's no questions the pickup placement has a ton to do with tone. With the steel I think the pickup placement has more to do with right hand technique and not wanting the pickups in the way of that than any specific tone profiles.
I was hoping someone had spent some time trying to figure out where the string makes the best tone. By the lack of responses I have to assume that I either asked the question poorly or it's just not something of interest to most steelers?

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Well, I have a movable PU on my main steel. The "normal" distance is in the middle of the slightly less than 1 inch "range", and that's where the humbucker stays for the most part. Sometimes I prefer the warmer sound further away from the bridge though, and sometimes the sharper sound close to the bridge.

Jason Hull · Posted 5 Feb 2010 3:43 am

Doug Palmer · From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

There are sweet spots and dead spots all up and down the scale. Most put it in the first sweet spot near the changer. MOVE IT A LITTLE OFF THAT SPOT AND YOU LOSE A LOT OF VOLUME.
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com!

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Doug, are you sure you got that right? I have moved a humbucker up and down several inches along the neck while testing, and all that really changes is the balance in string harmonics. Didn't really lose main-tone volume until the bar ended up on the wrong side of the PU - reasonably enough.

Of course there are what we may call "sweet spots" if we want a certain sound out of the instrument, but I have yet to find really "dead" positions. Maybe it's easier to find severely dampened spots with a single coil with narrow poles..?

Nicholai Steindler · From: New York, USA

I think there is much in the music world that is the way it is because of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality.

Everyone just assumes the best way has been found and innovation stops. Truth be told, most of the time some idiot just tried something, it worked on the first try, and no one has questioned it since. Have pickups really changed at all since there invention? Maybe a tiny bit, but a modern pickup would be instantly recognizable to a 1930's musician, and vice versa. If we started form scratch using modern technology, somehow I doubt we would end up with the same design. Probably be laser sensing string vibration meters with DA conversion. Mr. Green

A good example is strings, a subject I've spent some time researching lately. In the 1600's Violin players used a progressive tension that "felt" equal. This was what Mozart actually recomended if my memory serves me right. You can see the giant low strings in paintings from the period. That slowly changed to true equal tension, and from there they went to where the guitar world is, un-equal tension. Now they are making there way back to equal and progressive string tension. A full circle from the 1500's.

(I could have read the studies wrong, I am not an expert, just a hobbyist)

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I don't think most of this pickup placement stuff was developed 'by accident'. There is quite a bit of evidence that the first large-scale manufacturer of solid-body spanish-electric guitars, and an early steel manufacturer - Leo Fender - spent quite a bit of time experimenting with pickup placement on his early guitars - steels, Telecaster, and Stratocaster - and his interest was in getting a clean, clear, bright sound for western swing and country music that early, limited-fidelity tube amps could amplify well and project in a band - especially the lead pickup. The slanted lead pickup was certainly not randomly chosen. I think it's safe to say that other makers - including pedal steel makers - also care about this, but as a 'standard sound profile' developed, variations to that standard have become harder to sell.

I agree that the relative position along the scale length changes the ratio of various harmonics, assuming a standard string diameter and composition, and a standard initial condition - where and how the string is plucked. So like Jay, I think that if one wanted to maintain the 'standard' Sho Bud configuration, it would move the pickup slightly away from the changer. But I think variations in the string pluck's initial condition can change things significantly, so I don't know how much this variation would really affect things.

Jay - have you tried some controlled playing and listening experiments to see if you can detect any significant difference in tone through the same amp?

This is the kind of thing that used to get discussed periodically on this forum, but doesn't seem to any more. I'm imagine a search would bring up some of those old threads, but it's been a while since I've seen one.

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

I agree with Nicholai. Certain elements of early design are often credited to extensive experimentation when in reality these elements are more “seat of the pants” decisions.

I’m not sure how much experimentation Leo did with his 25.5” scale guitars, but for sure, the bridge pickup had to be located within the common bridge plate and the neck pickup needed to be close to the neck but not so close as to interfere with adjusting the truss rod. Right or wrong, that has worked for 60 years.

My Sho-Bud pickup measures 1.8” from the changer axle with a 24” scale. The equivalent location for a 24.375” scale instrument would be 1.828”. That’s not much difference (.028).

My Sho-Bud E9th pickup is 1.8” and my C6th pickup is 1.875. Same metal neck plates, just different installations. Smile

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

That doesn't jive with statements I've read over the years.

From Duchossoir's Telecaster book, this statement by Freddie Tavares about the reason for the slanted lead pickup -

Nicholai Steindler · From: New York, USA

I certainly wasn't saying there were not great people who did brilliant things, I think perhaps I should have left the word idiot out. Some average guy would have been better.

I was definitely not referring to Leo Fender though. Just the fact the fretted bass didn't exist before him is mind blowing. Or the beginning of Rickenbacker/National. I was more saying people should not stop now, there is more to learn, no idea is absolute no instrument is perfect. However I'm sure a good bit of what Leo did was seat of your pants by modern standards. Nowadays I could see a pickup being analyzed by machines, having its magnetic field and spectrum graphed etc (I'm not saying anyone does this, just we could). I would bet the early days of Fender were a bunch of guys in a warehouse. Everyone wants that 60's sound though, so it's not going to move for a bit in my opinion.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree that one should never stop experimenting. But I think, on the whole, guitar and steel players are a pretty conservative bunch and are looking for the classic sounds. For example, Leo Fender continued refining and perfecting his designs with Music Man and G&L - but Fenders of the original design outsell them by orders of magnitude. A black mica Emmons push-pull or old Sho Bud continue to be the benchmark sounds for a helluvalotta steel guitar designers and players.

I guess the only thing I'm disagreeing with is that a lot of these sounds were arrived at largely by accident, and that somehow technology necessarily arrives at a better result. I think a lot of thought and experimentation went into the original Fender designs, and I suspect the same is true for others. They didn't have CAD tools, electronic and mechanical simulation models, numerical control machinery, computers, and the internet to gather information - they had to do it the hard way, and did a pretty damned good job to my tastes.

Nicholai Steindler · From: New York, USA

I think we are agreeing actually. Mr. Green

Me personally, I would love to see things like a pedal steel with a dual set of humbuckers, or maybe even a triple set. Whats it sound like? There's some odd balls out there. Or a new instrument, what was the last new instrument to really hit the scene, pedal steel? We kind of stopped forty years ago.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I'd be very surprised if one couldn't get many makers of new pedal steels to build whatever pickup arrangement you want. Several people here have talked about getting dual pickups in the last year or two. Most makers are small shops and seem to be very big on customer service. I think we're very lucky.

I honestly think the reason most buyers don't do this is that they want the classic sounds from an SD-10 or D-10 with the standard pickup arrangement and a standard keyhead. Double pickups, 12-strings, keyless, and so on are very much a minority taste. But they're all available if you want 'em.

Nicholai Steindler · From: New York, USA

How do I know if I want them? Never heard one! Laughing

I agree. I do. I just don't have $5000 dollars everytime I have a new idea, I have enough of that problem doing my own work (I'm a visual artist). There always needs to be that guy with money pushing innovation.

I do think I noticed something interesting in pointing out instrument evolution has mostly stopped or slowed. From the 1600's until the 1960's there was a massive amount of instrument innovation and new instrument development. People were willing to try new instruments readily from 1900 on (lap steel, electric guitar, electric bass, pedal steel, synthesizer etc.) Suddenly, it's like everyone declared it was perfect, and that was it.

Has anyone ever made a dobro, lap steel or pedal out of carbon fiber? I bet that would let you have some crazy tunings in dobro format with no worry about instrument damage. A pedal steel made out of it would be fairly light. I've seen oldtimers complaining about carrying their instruments around! Winking

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Since this thread is about PickUp placement...

I have for decades wanted a steel where the strings act as individual coils and the magnets are placed on the neck. Such arrangements have been built on/into steel-stringed classic guitars - with excellent results, but the steel guitar with its one-piece metal bridge/changer doesn't allow for tapping current from individual strings, and the steel bar shorts the strings.

By getting the changer away from the bridge, splitting and optimizing the bridge and using zirconium bars, the PU as we know it may as well be left out completely. Will of course need a few years research, testing and trimming, and new step-up buffer-amps, to get it right Smile

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

Jay...I was curious if anyone had acquired that steel, I was following it on the local Craigs List. Would love to see and hear it sometime, are you currently working any of the area clubs? Nicholai...I believe "Melobar" manufactures a resonator guitar made from a synthetic material and the "MSA Millenium" model pedal steel is fashioned from carbon fiber. "Rainsong" six string acoustics are also fashioned from carbon fiber and they may make other types of instruments as well.

Nicholai Steindler · From: New York, USA

Those are cool guitars, thanks for the info. 32 lbs is not bad at all. I wonder if the MSA lost tone trying to change the top to carbon or if they thought that would be too strange.

Does this fender have a non standard pickup installed?

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1547971#1547971

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Nicholai Steindler · From: New York, USA

I need to learn to be very specific on this board!

I was not saying there is no development whatsoever. I said when was the last time a new instrument became popular? Pedal steel? People are not as open as they used to be. The hipshot trilogy is a good example. Awesome idea, not that many people are using it.

(Though considering the bakelite and "steel" guitar, I'm not sure how new "composite" materials are. Or if moving pickups around for that matter counts as an advance. Sure there are active pickups, but that was done on one of the first guitars ever, etc.)

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Getting back to the question of pickup placement, At one time I has 2 pickups in my while mica steel; one in the normal position, the other at the end of the fretboard.

Sonically, it was great. I had 4 different tones. Each pickup individually, both, and both out of phase. (I used both pickups out of phase on the song "A Boy Like that" on my West Side Story CD and can send an MP3 anybody wants to hear what this sounds like.)

BUT the second pickup was always getting in the way of my picking, as well as those rare times when I'd play way at the top of the fretboard. It proved to be so much trouble that I had it removed and the neck replaced. (Fortunately Tom Bradshaw had a spare.)

Regardless of whatever the tonal aspects of placing the pickup near the changer may be, I now feel that ergonomically, it's the best place.

I'm very curious to see how the new Desert Rose guitar with 2 pickup, sounds and feels, and whether the builder has found a way to overcome the problems I encountered.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

When I started this thread I was curious to find out if the pickup placement was related to the way a string vibrates along it's length. I have a 25" scale guitar that has the pickup mounted a little further away from the bridge than normal and it sounds very 'Fenderish' even though the pickup is wound in the normal steel guitar range. I thought for sure someone with a good physics background would have put a little time into figuring this out--but maybe not? Certainly ergonomically the current location is perfect. There are some people trying the two pickup idea these days. There's a recent post by Dan Tyack on his Desert Rose and Russ Pahl is doing a good bit of experimenting with his two pedal Show-Pro.

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Nicholai Steindler · From: New York, USA

The answer to your question is yes, pickup placement should be very related to sound and string vibration. For best sound it should be in an antinode of the string vibration wave.

Here is actual information.

This is an applet that will show you frequency response based on where the pickup is placed.

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html

Apparently where you guys like your pickups is in the zone with the least volume and a rather limited tone, which might explain why PSG pickups are wound about twice as hot as regular guitar. Is this intentional for tone or is your tone a by product of ergonomics? Only you guys will know, and even that is probably debatable. Laughing

(mostly joking)

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/index.html

DISCLAIMER!!

I am not saying pickups in the bridge position are inferior in any way. In fact, I have a guitar with a single humbucker there that sounds like nothing I've ever heard, it's amazing.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic