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Topic: Rollers,,Brass,Stainless,Alum,?? |
Richard Tipple
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 9:43 am |
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Wondering if there is that much difference 
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steelguitarguy.com |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 1:25 pm
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Richard, I wouldn't use aluminum for one thing. I would be afraid that the stainless steel string(hard) would dig into the groove for the aluminum(soft) in no time and thereby throw off the carefully designed properties of the groove.
Brass has been accepted as a material for rollers. Although it is way softer than stainless steel, I guess it is found to be acceptable. Some people think there is a small difference in tone in brass vs ss. For durability I would choose ss. For tone I guess brass would win.
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BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 2:12 pm
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| Use 6061 T6 aluminum. |
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Richard Tipple
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 2:21 pm
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Thanks fellas for the input  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 9:54 pm
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I've used titanium on 6-string and found it too bright for me - but I'm used to brass or '68 threaded Fender saddles. Like Chris, I've also used aluminum with good results.
On steel, I've used steel on my Fenders; some have recently tried nylon and really liked it (less string breakage as well). For modern steels brass or a synthetic like Delrin might be a very good choice, depending on how much "bite" you want.
I'm making a set of Delrin rollers for my Fender 400. Thinking about options for my GFI as well.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 11:02 pm
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| Why not 18% nickel silver? |
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Jason Hull
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 4:02 am 18% nickel silver
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Last edited by Jason Hull on 27 Apr 2012 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 6:29 am
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Chris L, Please post your reasons for thinking 6061 T6 is the material of choice. Like I said earlier, it is way softer than the string. So the string will wear the groove out of shape in no time. Or what am I missing?
If you swear by aluminum, why not 7075? It's a wee bit harder.
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BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 9:17 am
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Bent, I'm curious...
Doesn't the string follow the surface of the roller, so there will only be a downward pressure and very little friction that could cause wear? I thought that was the main reason for having rollers in the first place.
Of course; if a roller hangs on the axle - not properly oiled etc., the friction and wear increase enormously. Deep V-shaped grooves will also be worn out of shape pretty quickly, and end up U-shaped.
I prefer U-shaped grooves, and they pretty much stay in shape almost regardless of material as long as the rollers roll properly. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 9:26 am
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6061 T6 sounds good on an Emmons.
Nickel silver is not way too soft. It is harder than brass or 6061, the standard roller materials. Compare on a lathe sometime.
If you want something that primarily stands up to wear try the very musically dead titanium.
Do not obsess about wear. Think about tone. Wear probably has more to do with the diameter of the roller and the diameter of its axle, and the lubrication used on the axle, and the string break angle than its material. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 11:17 am
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Georg, Chris,
What I have learned lately departs from the usual way of thinking about rollers.
I thought that the string was to lay in a U-shaped groove, ideally with half it's thickness showing above the roller.
A design engineer- one with expertise in sound- has turned my thinking around; it makes sense to me what he says.
When you have the sting touching the roller on the total of half its circumference, the roller then serves to actually mute the vibrations more than enhance them.
Therefor, he says, the string should contact the roller on only one point on each side. This two point contact is an elementary piece of audio knowledge being taught to engineers. He sketched it all up for me , including the correct angle of the cutter as well as showed the correct depth to achieve the correct V-groove width-to-depth ratio. I can't repeat the exact formulas to you simply because it was explained to me only once and my math skills are nowhere near this level of comprehension. So I'll have to have him explain and draw some more for me.
So, even though I don't obsess about it, Chris, I am concerned about this 2 point contact and the possible effects it might have on hard steel vs a much softer metal such as aluminum.
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BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 11:25 am
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I can assure you that rollers are machined with a V groove, not a U groove, not for the two points of contact reasons you state, but for ease of machining.
With a sixty degree lathe tool, such a a thread cutting tool, you can make every roller. If you cut U shaped rollers, you will need a special sized tool for every roller, and if you changed string gauge you would need to change the roller.
By machining different depths with the V shaped tool, you can get very close to gauged rollers. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 12:35 pm
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Chris, what about uniform height for all the strings?
With the 60 deg cutter, would it automatically then make it so all the strings end up on the same plane?
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BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 1:15 pm
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| To attain all the strings on the same plane, and with a 60 degree groove, the depth of the groove = string diameter multiplied by 1.5 |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 2:37 pm
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Richard, thanks for tuning in.
With this angle and depth I think you said earlier that all the strings will be totally level on top?
I am checking this against what my friend told me. Not that I am doubting you, but two engineer heads think better than one 
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 6:14 pm
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Pat
Yes, on early Emmons Wraparound guitars the rollers are aluminum, 0.250" diameter, groove is one depth for all and is made with a 60 degree lathe bit. And, by the way, the roller axle slot does not extend to the sides of the keyhead.
On 1965 Wraparounds the aluminum rollers increase diameter to around 0.312", so that must be 5/16ths inches in diameter. Same size V groove. And, in these 1965 Wraparounds the roller axle slot is milled the full width of the keyhead.
If you are worried about not having enough sustain, use a solid nut like a Bigsby or 1950s Sho-Bud.
Chris Lucker |
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