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Topic: Modes Question |
Sherman Willden
From:
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 11:40 am |
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When are we playing in any certain mode? When do we switch modes? Are modes key signature dependent? Assume that we are playing in the key of Cmaj; does a significant amount of playing time in G7th put us into the Mixolydian mode?
Thank you;
Sherman
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Sherman L. Willden
It is easy to play the steel guitar. Playing so that the audience finds it pleasing is the difficult act. |
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Gianni Gori
From:
Livorno, Italy
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 12:27 pm
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Start by learning which are the major and the minor modes. This is the first step for selecting what may work or not in a song.
Then... try to look at modes not just as "derived" from major scale. Consider them for what they differ from the major scale.
For instance, you quoted the mixolydian... well, a mixolidian scale is not just a major scale played starting from its 5th note. It's mainly a major scale with a flat 7th.
Play a C major scale (i.e. C ionian scale), then a C mixolydian. The difference is that flat 7th, so the caracteristic sounds are in the intervals including that note.
Same for the lydian: a major scale with a sharp 4th. And so on...
Learn how they sound. While playing, try to emphasize their peculiar intervals more than the others.
You'll discover a lot of ways to use them...  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 1:09 pm
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This might be sacrilege, but I think modes are largely irrelevant. The standard modes are all just different starting points for the same scale. To me, what's important is the current scale and the current chord.
So to answer your question with a question, why does it matter to you if you're playing G mixolydian or C ionian over that G7th chord? Both contain exactly the same notes. Do you phrase differently if you're playing mixolydian vs ionian? If so, what is the difference?
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 1:34 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
This might be sacrilege, but I think modes are largely irrelevant. The standard modes are all just different starting points for the same scale. To me, what's important is the current scale and the current chord.
So to answer your question with a question, why does it matter to you if you're playing G mixolydian or C ionian over that G7th chord? Both contain exactly the same notes. Do you phrase differently if you're playing mixolydian vs ionian? If so, what is the difference? |
Phrasing is very important with modes. If you're playing C ionian, your phrases tend to resolve to a chord tone of the C chord...a C, E, or G. The other notes are passing tones. If you do resolve to a note that isn't the root, 3rd, or 5th of C, it's an extension of the chord (6th, 7th, 9th, etc) that the rest of the band is playing.
If you're playing G mixolydian, you'd tend to resolve your phrases to the chord tones of a G chord...G, B, or D. You're using the same notes, but implying a different mode.
If you're basing your lines around the C tonality, even while you play over a G7 chord, then it's just C ionian, not G mixolydian.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 1:46 pm
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I resolve my phrases to the chord that is playing. A C scale lick can end on a D note if the current chord is Dm or G7. I don't really bother with modes.
I find that it simplifies things quite a bit if I think in terms of the major scales instead of the constantly shifting modes.
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 2:24 pm
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Modes are great 'training wheels' when starting out, but to really get the most out of them, try a different approach.
The real strength in learning modes is as a tool for ear training.
Start by comparing them using a single root:
What is the difference between C Ionian and C Lydian, or between C Aolian and C Dorian. Write out the notes. Play them.
Experiment with the differences between the major modes, Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. Do the same for the minor modes, Dorian and Aolian, Phrygian and Locrian.
Once you learn the differences, and learn to HEAR what those differences are, you can then have greater freedom to play what you hear, which is a critical tool for a musician to cultivate.
It also will allow you to know what chords are being played in a song BY EAR.
My ear has by far been the most useful tool I've learned to use. More than speed, licks, blocking, or technique. Use theory to train your ear.
HEARING. What else is music....? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 7:06 pm
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To simplify things, modes can be looked at as chord scales; the function of the chord defines how it is treated with regard to its upper extensions and its role in the harmony. This may also apply to improvisation, although the basic church modes can sound colorless compared to some of the more adventurous sounds of the modes of other scales, such as melodic minor.
Please note that, while it is important to understand that certain upper extensions shouldn't be used in certain situations, it is not really necessary to think in terms of modes. Once you do understand the common functions of chords (I, ii7, iii7, etc.) it becomes much easier to hear which extensions work.
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2010 11:10 pm
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While it's important to understand modes, including melodic and harmonic minor modes, I think that derivative thinking over an arpeggio "shell", basically what Bob suggests, is much more practical, in most situations. Unless you're playing Gregorian chants or some other type of monophonic music, the chords will make the scales sound like the prevailing modes, and you use the chord tones to "make the changes". If you think D dorian, G mixolydian, C ionian, you are far more likely to be landing on roots all the time, a fairly weak tone in an improvised melody.
The exceptions are the melodic (ascending) and harmonic minor modes, which have specific uses over specific types of chords. Even then, it's usually easier to think "hmmm, an altered, resolving dominant chord - I'll play a melodic minor a half step above" than to think super locrian at the root of the dominant, in my opinion. Also, if a song calls for a certain major mode, it's good to know what they are. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 12:34 am
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| Quote: |
| So to answer your question with a question, why does it matter to you if you're playing G mixolydian or C ionian over that G7th chord? Both contain exactly the same notes. Do you phrase differently if you're playing mixolydian vs ionian? If so, what is the difference? |
The difference is..... There is no difference between G mixolydian or C ionian they contain the same notes but that is just as saying there is no difference between the C# on 2nd strind (w a lever) or C# on 5 string (w A pedal) they are the same notes. Both examples is wrong because we are viewing it wrong, there is a difference and in order to understand why modes can be useful you have to step out of the key youre playing in and apply the same mode to the different chords. So lets say you have C7 and F7 and G7 as chords to play over.
Options could be C mixolydian, F mixolydian, G mixolydian. Or you could view it as C mixolydian, C dorian, C ionian. Repeating the same phrase and only changing a single note in the scale (to transform from Mixolydian to dorian to Ionian)lets you play in the same position more easily.
But if you stick to the original key at all times it probably wont matter because you never going to be playing anything else than...
C major,D dorian,E phrygian,F Lydian,G mixolydian,A aeolian, B locrian all the time since they contain the same notes.
To really hear the difference of the certain modes you could try to apply them as a key signature and listen how a I IV V I progression from that mode sounds.
C Ionian would be Cmaj7 Fmaj7 G7 Cmaj7 (probably sound very familiar)
while C dorian would be Cm7 F7 Gm7 Cm7
Now someone would probably complain since the V chord is not dominant but well that dont matter, just try those chords and listen listen listen.
There are a million ways to view things but in the end let the ear and heart decide what notes are appropriate.
The more ways you know how to view things may make it easier to grab that note the ear and heart wants to hear played tho.
Bengt Erlandsen
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To me, what's important is the current scale and the current chord.
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so true, and if the scale contains 7 notes only, remember to add the 8th note (silence) in to that scale also. It could be the most powerful note of the whole scale.
I often forget that (silence) note  |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 7:16 am
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I don’t think you’re gonna Rock unless you get a grasp on them moody Modes.
Each Mode has its own "flavor" or "mood". Most players fall into a trap of learning the many different patterns on the fret board without really listening to the sound and mood of each individual scale.
Dorian Mode.
The "mood" of this mode is fairly dark, but it also has a very jazzy or bluesy quality.
It’s hard to find a rock song that this Mode doesn’t show up in.
Here’s a couple of examples anyway, “Oye Como Va" by Santana (A Dorian),
"Evil Ways" by Santana, (G Dorian),
Phrygian Mode.
The "mood" of this mode is VERY dark, and is often used by "heavier" bands.
The intro from "Space Oddity" by David Bowie (E Phrygian),
The main riff from "Harvester of Sorrow" by Metallica (E Phrygian),
The intro from "This Love" by Pantera (F# Phrygian), the main riff from "Over the Mountain" by Ozzy (G# Phrygian),
The verse from "The Wizard" by Black Sabbath (A Phrygian)
Lydian Mode
The "Mood" of this mode is very bright and is quite similar in sound to the Major Scale. This particular Mode is used a lot in movie soundtracks because of the "uplifting" quality of the scale.
The theme from "The Simpson's" cartoon by Danny Elfman (C Lydian)
The main melody from "Flying in a Blue Dream" by Joe Satriani (C Lydian)
The verse from "Here Comes My Girl" by Tom Petty (A Lydian)
The main melody from "Answers" by Steve Vai (D Lydian)
Mixolydian Mode. The "mood" of this mode is bright in sound somewhat like the Major Scale, but unlike the Major Scale, the Mixolydian Mode has more of a "bluesy" or "funky" quality.
The verse from "She Said She Said" by the Beatles (B Mixolydian)
The outro section from "Hey Jude" by the Beatles (F Mixolydian)
The intro riff from "Limelight" by Rush (B Mixolydian)
The signature intro riff from "Sweet Child 'O Mine" by Guns 'n' Roses (D Mixolydian)
The main riff from "Thank You" by Led Zeppelin (D Mixolydian)
The main melody and outro sections from "Main Street" by Bob Seger (D Mixolydian)
The intro riff from "Burning of the Midnight Lamp" by Jimi Hendrix (B Mixolydian)
The verse and chorus sections from "Let It Rain" by Eric Clapton (D Mixolydian)
The verse from "Southern Cross" by Crosby, Stills and Nash (A Mixolydian)
There’s a lot more but I think you get the idea of the importance of Modes. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 8:30 am
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Over the last few years i have had a renewed love affair with electric guitar, and have gotten into Modes and use of the CAGED method for guitar (solo'ing out of chord forms).
Anyway... Here is an excellent overview of Modes that really clicked for me:
http://www.highcountryguitar.com/modes_intro.htm |
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Shaun Swanson
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 10:49 am
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I started to understand music when I forgot about modes.
I don’t know why guitar players obsess over them. I asked my viola teacher (who was about to graduate with a BA in music) about modes once. He thought for a moment and said, “Oh, those. String player don’t really bother thinking about them.”
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 12:48 pm
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| Shaun Swanson wrote: |
| ...I asked my viola teacher (who was about to graduate with a BA in music) about modes once. He thought for a moment and said, “Oh, those. String player don’t really bother thinking about them.” |
I agree with your viola teacher. I never think in terms of modes--I think in terms of tonal centers, chords and their possible extensions and their destination.
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Joe Gretz
From:
Washington, DC, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 2:55 pm modes
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I don't think about grammar when I speak, but having learned it enables me to express myself eloquently and extemporaneously.
YMMV
Joe
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Rick Winfield
From:
Pickin' beneath the Palmettos
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 3:27 pm Lydian b7
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One of my favorite uses, is the "Lydian b7" mode" used over a IV 9th & V 9th
i.e.
Key of G, improvised over C9th,& D9th
C,D,E,F#,G,A,Bb,C
Rick |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 3:42 pm Re: modes
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| Joe Gretz wrote: |
I don't think about grammar when I speak, but having learned it enables me to express myself eloquently and extemporaneously.
YMMV
Joe |
That is true, Joe--once you learn the rules, you use them or not at your own discretion. Better to have choices, I think. I have no regrets in learning it.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 3:45 pm Re: Lydian b7
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| Rick Winfield wrote: |
One of my favorite uses, is the "Lydian b7" mode" used over a IV 9th & V 9th
i.e.
Key of G, improvised over C9th,& D9th
C,D,E,F#,G,A,Bb,C
Rick |
See, I wouldn't think of that as a fancy-named "mode". I'd think of it as a C7 or D+ chord in the key of G. I'd still be playing in a G major scale, but with an altered note (the B becomes Bb or A#) because of the chord.
If you know what key signature you're in and what the current chord is, what difference does the "mode" make? What does it bring to the party that you don't already know?
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Allen Kentfield
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 4:44 pm Modes
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To me the thing about modes is which chord leads to the tonic (resolution). In traditional country, the V resolves to I. The II major commonly used is from the Lydian mode. ("Hey, Good Lookin'", "San Antonio Rose", etc.) It's related to the V chord.
In the Mixolydian mode, the IV resolves to the I. (as in "Sweet Home Alabama", and six thousand other "rock" songs.)  To me, it has more of a minor feel.
The thing is to learn phrasing that works for that kind of cadence. Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian are all major modes and sometimes songs will slip from one mode to another.
Studying modes gave me a new way to look at the E9 Chromatic Tuning,  as "A, Lydian". The C#maj chord comes from the F# harmonic minor mode.
Al Kentfield 
Jonestown, Texas |
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Joe Gretz
From:
Washington, DC, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 5:05 pm
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I think that one should consider modes as a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Chords in a progression not only have a quality, but a function in the key center. Modes help me keep my perspective, and give me choices!
Choices are good! Are you playing something because it is one of a few things that you know will work...or are you playing it because it is EXACTLY what you want to say?
Learning the modes of the Ionian (major scale) is (or can be) just the beginning. The modes of the melodic and harmonic minor scales can yield some very compelling fruit...but we also should consider context, compatibility, and above all good taste!
I don't think I'd select the super locrian or the bebop harmonic minor scale if I was taking a ride on "Swinging Doors"...
...or WOULD I... 
Sometimes I tell people that there is only ONE scale in the music of the western hemisphere, and that is the chromatic scale, and I'm only half joking!
Honestly, I don't really "think" of modes with the front of my brain when I'm playing...they're "grammar"...if I think of anything, its phrasing (mostly), consonance and dissonance, and above all, what is going on around me (listening).
or at least I TRY to...
Joe
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 5:29 pm Re: Lydian b7
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| b0b wrote: |
If you know what key signature you're in and what the current chord is, what difference does the "mode" make? What does it bring to the party that you don't already know? |
b0b, the simplest way I can express it is this: If you are playing a ii7 chord, most likely your available notes for extensions of that chord or for melody notes are going to be derived from the Dorian mode. If you're playing over the iii7 chord, that choice would not necessarily be the same because of the fact that once you go beyond the b7 up to the 9th, you are going to play a chord tone which is not a scale tone; eg., key of C, Dm9 is fine, but Em9 contains an F#, which may or may not work, depending on the context (if you do play Em9 in C, it sounds like a temporary key change, like a iii-VI-ii-V turnaround). So, theoretically, when thinking of extensions on that chord, you are mindful of this and if you need to stay consonant, you play your extensions from the E phrygian scale.
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Byron Walcher
From:
Ketchum, Idaho, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 6:31 pm
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For me, the simplest way of thinking about this is to remember what the parent scale is and that the 2 minor, 3 minor, 4, 5, and 6 minor, all can be soloed over by using the ionian scale. Many times when I hear a soloist getting these cool "outside" type of notes all that is happening is the parent scale, much the same as a blues player stays on the pentatonic minor when the chord changes between I IV and V. The only trick is that in each of these chors there is an "avoid" note, such as the 7th tone in the ionian mode. Hope that may be of help,
Byron
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 6:49 pm
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I think Modes are just plain fun to know about.
Linking the Modes (once you know them and get used to them) to songs you know and love and have been playing for years, is great fun!
For example... All this time I've been calling it "The Secret Carlos Santana Guitar Solo scale" (to paraphrase Frank Zappa:) )... Turns out his whole career is built on Am Dorian.
The intro to White Rabbit - Phrygian.
Stuff like that... it's just fun for me to learn/know and be able to play and discuss with other folks who are interested in Scales & Modes at this point of my musical study/hobby. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 19 Jan 2010 7:13 pm
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Here's a blurb I posted on this Forum back in 2004:
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Here’s the most basic explanation I can come up with:
Each mode is a different “starting place” in the major scale. There are 7 modes of the major scale, each one having a Greek name, and each one offering a different "flavor", a unique sound.
This is a C Scale:
It starts on the C note (1) and goes up one octave to the next C note.
Now play this C scale (SAME NOTES) starting on 2nd interval (D). Play from D up to the next D:
This is called the Dorian Mode. Some players think… big deal, it’s still a C scale… yes, it is a C scale starting on 2, But if you consider D to be the root note you then have a “new scale” unlike any other. It’s called the Dorian mode. It's the same as the Minor scale except that it has a natural 6th tone. So it yields a slightly different sound because of the natural 6th. You would play D Dorian over songs in the key of D minor. Remember… it’s still a C Major scale (same notes). So many players would simply play “C over Dm”. In other words, if a song is in the key of Dm, you play the C scale over the chord changes…. and you are playing D Dorian. I find this easier than memorizing a bunch of Dorian patterns (both on regular guitar and on steel).
The 3rd mode of the major scale is called Phrygian:
Here is a normal C Scale:
Now play this C scale (SAME NOTES) starting on 3nd interval (E) Play from E up to the next E:
This is called the Phrygian Mode. Consider E to be the root note and play these notes over songs in the key of E. You’d be playing E Phrygian. Phrygian has a distinct “Latin flavor”, or a Spanish sound. Nothing else sounds like it. Of course, it’s also the C major scale (same notes). Instead of learning a bunch of Phrygian patterns, I simply play the approriate major scale over the chord changes, for example I would play improvise within the C major scale over the key of E to get the Phrygian sound. The C Major scale is the same as E Phrygian, same notes.
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 1:45 am
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I don’t know of anyone who builds their whole music career around Modes.
An applied Mode is just another scale.
Mode Scales are usually applied as substitutes for chords or melody usually in an ad lib manor over an existing song to achieve a different mood.
Example, the Dorian Mode is commonly used to force a bluesy mood (minor scale) over a Mayor scale as in the blues forcing a (1) minor over the entire 1, 4, 5 major chord progression.
I could have just as well have substituted a Japanese Scale over the whole blues song
Geez them Japanese Scales sounded so good from now on I'll refer to the moods of the Modes as Japanese sounds.
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I asked my viola teacher (who was about to graduate with a BA in music) about Modes (Japanese sounds) once. He thought for a moment and said, “Oh, those. String player don’t really bother thinking about them.”
Unquote, it sounds like he never wants to substitute moods (Modes) (sound Japanese) over the melody, usually meaning he is going to play what’s written only
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” I agree with your viola teacher. I never think in terms of Modes (Japanese sounds)--I think in terms of tonal centers, chords and their possible extensions and their destination”
unquote, lots of luck on getting the other 6 (Modes) (Japanese sounds) out of tonal centers, chords and their extensions.
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“I started to understand music when I forgot about Modes (Japanese sounds)”
unquote, I’m in all sincerity very sorry you started out on the WONG foot. |
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Joe Gretz
From:
Washington, DC, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2010 2:44 am zappa
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Pete!
"The Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression" is one of the funniest pieces of music I've ever heard!
"Ladies and Gentlemen, another great Italian..."
I agree that modes are "just plain fun to know about"! Ever since I started playing I've been curious about how music works, and interested in learning as much as I could about it. It's the kind of work that doesn't really feel like work.
It's part of "enjoying the ride". Some people just want to "be someplace", they don't want to experience "getting there".
Some folks want to ride, others want to DRIVE...and some want to transcend the machine, become one with it...IDK...it's hard to express if you've never been there...
Some folks just put gas in their cars and go...
Other folks BABY their car like it's a part of their family...
Often I encounter young players who have to be coerced into practicing by their parents. I always ask them how many times they thought my parents had to tell me to practice...
The answer is ZERO!
How many times they asked me to put an instrument down is another story...
Joe
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