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Topic: Benefits of long scale length? |
Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 11 Jan 2010 3:01 pm |
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Hi all,
I tried to search on this subject but the words long and/or scale seemed to figure in just about every post on the forum  , so here I ask:
What are the benefits of long (25") scale length?
All my electric lap steels have around 23" scale length and I love this as accurate slants are so much easier (than on my 25" and 27.4" scale Weissenborns), and it just feels "right". I notice that many contemporary lap steel builders have 25" scale as their default scale length, and I am wondering what the benefits of the longer scale are?
The obvious that one can tune a longer string to a lower pitch is not of interest in this case - I am simply wondering about tone, sustain and playability.
Many thanks in advance!
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Jan 2010 4:16 pm
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An "objective" test would have to involve two lap steels that are exactly identical except for the scale length, so it's a tough one to answer.
I've played scale lengths from 22,5" to 25" and personally I prefer the longer scales, besides a slightly fuller tone they also seem to sustain a bit better when I play high up the neck, but we're dealing with very small nuances here.
And since these lap steels has been 'anything' from vintage 40s 22,5" models to modern day 25" Ashers and Lap Kings, it's kinda hard to tell how much of a role the scale length played in this. The 22,5" GeorgeBoards steels I've owned sure had both a full tone and great sustain..
Perhaps, in my case, it's mostly a 'mental' thing,- being a long time guitarist before picking up lap steel, I feel more comfortable with a typical "guitar" scale?
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Benjamin Franz
From:
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Posted 12 Jan 2010 3:44 am
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| Out of curiosity, what was the scale length of the Bigsbys? Were they made to the same scale, or did they vary for each player? |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Jan 2010 5:27 am
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| Fred...I think 23" is a good trade-off. I'm getting ready to build one. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 12 Jan 2010 5:53 am
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The best sounding pre-war Rick frypans seem to be the A25 long scale. A definite tone difference from a short scale A22. Mine is a short scale, and just doesn't quite cut it. I would like to build a long scale type, just for curiosity mostly.
Long scale Stringmasters seem to have a richer tone, from what I've listened to.
Your 23 inch scale is common on Valco built steel guitars, but don't know of any other brands that use that scale length. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 12 Jan 2010 5:53 am
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oops!!
. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 12 Jan 2010 6:25 am
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Longer scale guitars are just sexier 
Some guitars I just prefer with a longer, for example, a Stringmaster. I personally don't care for the short scale Stringmaster, because in my experience the notes just tend to die in the upper register. The 24 1/2" scale is perfection for that guitar, IMO.
I have no problem with the short scale on the Fender Dual Professionals and Customs, just the Deluxe and Stringmaster model.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Jan 2010 10:54 am
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| Steinar Gregertsen wrote: |
An "objective" test would have to involve two lap steels that are exactly identical except for the scale length, so it's a tough one to answer.
I've played scale lengths from 22,5" to 25" and personally I prefer the longer scales, besides a slightly fuller tone they also seem to sustain a bit better when I play high up the neck, but we're dealing with very small nuances here.
And since these lap steels has been 'anything' from vintage 40s 22,5" models to modern day 25" Ashers and Lap Kings, it's kinda hard to tell how much of a role the scale length played in this. The 22,5" GeorgeBoards steels I've owned sure had both a full tone and great sustain..
Perhaps, in my case, it's mostly a 'mental' thing,- being a long time guitarist before picking up lap steel, I feel more comfortable with a typical "guitar" scale? |
you were a guitar player first like me. it may just feel more organic for you to have the longer scale |
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Rich Hlaves
From:
Wildomar, California, USA
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Posted 12 Jan 2010 12:35 pm
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I have to agree with Mike Neer, My 24 1/2" Stringmaster has me spoiled. I think the string energy created by longer scale lengths is the reason for perceived better sustain and tone with longer scale lengths IMO. The longer the scale length, the greater the string energy.(more metal!)
My thought on the Fender is bridge design not so much the actual scale length. The Deluxes and short scale SMs Mike mentions all have the funky adjustable bridge that rests on two small raised sections of the control plate. It does not transfer energy well and is a sustain killer specially when it is adjusted just slightly long or short. (not to mention bent screws or control plate tabs!)
The longer scale overcomes this in two ways. One, longer scale equals higher string tention and more down force on the bridge. Two, again more string energy. I've experimented with my D6 22 1/2 Stringmaster trying to get more life above the 12th fret. Tuning it sharp a half step improves sustain (but how do you play it?). Heavier strings improve sustain, more energy and tention I would think.
The older Deluxes and D8s have a fixed bridge solidly mounted to the guitar's body improving sustain. Just my 2C here but the science seems to back this up.
My Nationals have fixed bridges with shorter scale and have plenty of sustain and wonderfull tone. Not that a short scale Fender sounds bad.
Best,
Rich |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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George Keoki Lake
From:
Edmonton, AB., Canada
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Posted 13 Jan 2010 7:32 am
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FWIW: When I purchased my JB Frypan from JB, I made it a point of asking him his preferance...long or short? He replied "short", therefore I chose accordingly. However upon receiving it I soon discovered his fantastic touch and tone were not included with the guitar. Nuts!  |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 13 Jan 2010 10:12 am
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| Quote: |
| When I purchased my JB Frypan from JB, I made it a point of asking him his preferance...long or short? He replied "short" |
Yes, Jerry Byrd played 22 1/2" scale length for his entire career. No problem with tone or sustain there! He was a master of "slants" and those are easier to play on short scale, especially on the lower frets, on adjacent strings. I've owned a couple of long scale lap steels in the past, and I was very frustrated by the w-i-d-e spacing of frets 1 through 5 and the difficulty of playing slants on those frets. The tone was awesome though. Long scale steels ring like a bell, there's no denying that. 
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2010 10:36 am
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And, I remember Jerry Byrd saying (or writing somewhere):
" If you are a good player, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have;
and if you are not a good player, then it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have." |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 13 Jan 2010 8:28 pm
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| Rick Collins wrote: |
And, I remember Jerry Byrd saying (or writing somewhere):
" If you are a good player, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have;
and if you are not a good player, then it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have." |
I love that quote! It's so true. The most important factor is the Player.
I'm reminded of the time Chet Atkins was being interviewed by a reporter. Chet picked up his Gretsch and played a tune and the reporter said "that Guitar sounds Great!" Chet placed the guitar in the hands of the reporter and asked.... "how does it sound now?" 
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 13 Jan 2010 11:57 pm
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2010 8:29 am
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I have something that has puzzled me for some time.
Jerry Byrd has stated that 22 1/2" is the ideal scale length for a steel guitar.
However, on the Excel, Jerry Byrd, model console guitars, the scale length is an even 22". If these had the endorsement of Jerry Byrd, why didn't they use the 22 1/2" scale as prefered by Jerry?
I have a couple of these guitars, a single and a double neck, and they are great guitars.
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2010 9:42 am
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Erv, I figure Jerry Byrd just liked the short scale, and meant 22" or 22&1/2" to be an approximation
__ not because of sustaining qualities or tone, but for ease of slants in the lower register.
A greater question for me:
Why did Emmons choose 24&1/4" instead of 24" or 24&1/2" scale length? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2010 9:57 am
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Rick,
I've got a better question for you.
I have a D-10 Excel and it has a 24 1/8" scale!
How's that for something different.
I didn't know it until I ordered a new fretboard for it.
I believe that when they started working on building the Emmons guitar, the boys were experimenting around with different scale lenths and they determined that 24 1/4" was the longest scale length practical with a minimum of string breakage.
However, you can go with a longer scale length if you use keyless tuners. You don't have to contend with the extra string length beyond the roller nut.
Especially for the 5th and 6th strings. |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2010 10:41 am
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Erv, all good points.
Many don't like the keyless because they are so ugly __ myself included.
Would this serve the string breakage problem on the longer scale guitars with a conventional keyhead?
Build the keyhead with a bar behind the nut low enough to cause an extreme s-wrap when the string comes across the nut?
Seemingly, this would cause less movement across the nut as the string is stretched.
I've never tried this. One might have a problem with getting the fine 4th string up to pitch (G#) without it breaking. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2010 10:47 am
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Rick,
You might consider some sort of "locking" nut instead of a roller nut.
Once you got your pedal steel tuned up, lock the strings at the nut.
Then you wouldn't have to be stretching or relaxing that portion of the string behind the nut when you make your pedal and lever changes. |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2010 11:22 am
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Erv, yes. I think that would work.
The breakage of the 3rd string on E9th is the only real problem for me.
The roller/lever bridge is ideal except for that string breaking and the awkward position for tuning the levers and pedals down on the end of the guitar.
I play Hawaiian on a Fender Dual Pro eight and some country on the long scale Stringmaster. I like the sound of each for each style of music.
I have a nine pedal Fender 1000, blond with polished frame (8 of course) and I've refinished it and had the frame re-polished.
It's now better than new, for me.
I have E9th on the outside bank, but I don't pull the G# up to A.
It's a limitation, but it's limited anyway with only eight strings.
I play a lot of slants anyway, and so I still get a lot from the 1000.
I like the sound of an Emmons and a Fender 1000 for different reasons.
Last edited by Rick Collins on 15 Jan 2010 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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George Keoki Lake
From:
Edmonton, AB., Canada
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Posted 15 Jan 2010 11:30 am
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Just an aside...JB was mighty sharp with the "come-backs" as those who knew him realized.
When asked, "Why he never smiles while performing" he replied, "I'm not selling toothpaste!" (or simi) |
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Stephan Miller
From:
Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2010 2:02 pm
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Fred, doing a search in the No Peddlers section of the "old" Forum always turns up good info and discussion about topics like this. I found a couple of threads that were pretty wide-ranging on this subject, that could be boiled down like so:
LONGER SCALE LENGTHS
-- somewhat fuller tone; harmonics fatter & bolder
-- increased sustain, esp. noticeable above the 12th fret
-- bar slants more severe closer to the nut, but more playable high on the neck than on short scales
-- bigger "sweet spot"/greater margin of error (results in easier intonation, easier harmonics)
-- more bar travel between notes; faster bar motion and wider "sweep" needed to achieve desired vibrato |
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