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Topic: Sho-Bud Tuning Help |
Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 27 Dec 2009 12:04 pm |
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| I'm having trouble getting my C pedal to raise the 4th string from E to F#. The pedal tuner will almost get it there, but not quite and I'm afraid to force it. Being new to this Pro II Custom, I could use some advice. Thanks. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Dec 2009 2:57 pm
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Check to see if the swivel is in the longest throw hole on the axle. Often too the throw arm on the axle can have a loose set screw in it limiting it's travel. Actually I'd check the set screw for being loose first.
EJL |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 12:29 am
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Actually, on the Pro II CUSTOM; the pull-rod w/nylon-tuner goes in the 2nd. hole away from the body, on the bridge and the 3rd. hole away from the body on the bellcrank. If it will not Raise a full-tone on the (C)-pedal, you'll need to increase the pedal-travel, by adjusting the stop-screw accordingly! Always leave a little movement in the pull-rod before it activates the changer on the string that changes the greatest amount.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 2:01 am
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| Before you alter anything, try operating the finger manually, to make sure it's ok. You may notice that the lower return spring moves when it shouldn't do, for instance |
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 8:55 am
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| Thanks, guys. I adjusted the stop and the pedal is now working fine. Now I've got another problem. I had a similar situation with the knee lever that lowers the E strings to D#. The 4th string lowered fine, but the 8th string was only going halfway. I noticed it was bottoming out on the stop screw. I let it out about 1/16" and after engaging it, the changers will not go back. Any ideas? |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 9:40 am
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It seems logical to me that you probably have something binding in the linkage between the lever and the changer. If one string Lowers and returns to pitch, but; the other string Lowers and does not return to pitch, the problem is in the changer. (Such as Return~Spring Tension.)
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 10:08 am
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Well, John, you were right. I finally figured it out. So simple. The plastic tuners were caught on the edge of the endplate. Should it even be possible for that to happen?
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 10:38 am
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| But I still can't get those E's to lower all the way to D# !#@&*! |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 11:11 am
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All pull-rods should run through the tuner-holes at a 90° angle. Some rods need a slight bend just ahead of the changer, in order to enter at a 90° angle, thus missing the cut-out in the endplate. _ _ _ Are you saying that although the KL is still moving, one string is not changing, but; the rod is still moving the lowering portion of that changer? Does the string lower at all or is the finger frozen in place?
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 12:13 pm
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| Both strings are lowering now, but I can't quite get either one all the way to D#. Should I try taking some slack out of the pull rod? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 1:54 pm
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"Should it even be possible for that to happen?"
Seen it many times before. I don't know why the nylon tuners are too long. I've seen them sticking out far enough for them to get bent just putting the guitar into it's case. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 2:22 pm
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From your explaination, it seems like you need a longer travel on your KL! Your pull-rods should be in about the 3rd. hole from the body on the bellcranks. Always leave just a very small anount of free-travel on all pedals and KL's. These adjustments can be made after everything is in tune and then retune where necessary.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 28 Dec 2009 5:13 pm
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| Thanks, John. I'll report back tomorrow after absorbing all this and making some adjustments. |
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 12:32 pm
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John,
I'm just getting a chance to work on this again, but I am a bit confused about some of the terminology in this posting and the other similar one going on from Todd Brown. I took this shot of my RKL mechanics and wondered if you would mind identifying the individual parts. Just like to be sure. Thanks.
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 1:31 pm
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1) Stop screw
2) Cross bar pull-arm
3) Knee lever linkage
4) Cross bar linkage
5) Roller
6) Puller
7) Cross bar
8.) Cross bar Bracket
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 4:04 pm
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| Richard, I think John is right . It sounds like that knee lever needs to travel, or pull a little bit further and you'll have it! to do this just adjust the STOP SCREW. When you get it to lower all the way, the KNEE LEVER might look like its at an angle,and be further away from your knee making it uncomfortable and harder to reach with your knee. There should be an adjustment screw at the top of the lever arm that will let you adjust THE ANGLE OF THE DANGLE |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 7:11 pm
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WEll you can see how the stop screw is set up behind that knee...that there is NO MORE travel to be had.
You can turn the stop screw around and get a little more....Or turn the stop screw mount around.
But something is telling me that the raise section is slightly depressed in the idle position. Without engaging any pedal or knee....and you turn the nylon tuner that raises the E to F#(C pedal) counter clockwise a 1/4 turn; does that make the open note go flat a tad?? if so; that is why you aren't able to lower all the way. You need to re-set up the 4th string raise(I can tell you how; but try that first).
Also is there a raise spring attached to the 4th string???(that's the little spring against the body of the guitar).
Also; when you raise the 4th string; does the lower section move towards the middle of the guitar(inward)???
I would suggest the 4th string whole tone raise rod in the closest hole to the changer and the half tone raise just below it. The lower can be in the lowest hole; just either bend up the nylon tuner so it doesn't hit(great design shobud....ha.) or you can use the other raise hole(second one away from ground); but will require more distance to stop than you have there.
Ricky
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 7:59 pm
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Ricky, totally right on. No more room on the stop screw. Missed that.
It seems that the entire stop screw BRACKET is too close to the pull arm, not allowing enough travel. Wouldn't it be O.K. to move the Bracket back maybe 1/4 inch or so, then adjust the screw where its needed?
Here's a pic of mine. There looks to be much more room between the lever and the stop bracket on my ProII than on Richard's.
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 8:10 pm
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Absolutely Todd; I have moved many stop brackets just as you described. Just move the front screw hole to the back screw hole and drill new hole for back hole in bracket.
But also; the way the stop screw is with the head being the stop; sometimes the corner of that crossbar pull arm; gets hung up in the hole of the screw...ha..or a false stop...It will hit and then go into the hole.
I always set stop screws behind the actual lever; plus that takes the tension off the lever weld when leaning on the stop;> I've seen a bazzillion broken knee lever welds because of this.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 8:35 pm
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I notice Richard and Todd have different undercarriages! I haven't really been around Sho-Bud much since about 1980 and my undercarriage is similar to Todd's. I'm just guessing that Richard's Pro II has an updated undercarriage replacement! Very nice looking. This is the first time I've seen this design! I think I'd try turning the #1-set~screw and lock-nut around from the other side of the bracket first.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 8:57 pm
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Mine was built middle of '82 right after the move to Conway, AR.
John, maybe Richard will show a few more pics. of his
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 9:11 pm
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Perhaps Richard's guitar has been what they call “Cooped”! I've never seen one.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 11:33 am
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Thanks for all this feedback, you guys. And sory for the delay in getting back to you. I hate it when insignificant things like my job get in the way my pedal steel obsession.
Anyway, as far as the stop screw goes, I screwed it all the way in. To go back to the start of my problem, the RKL would not quite get the string down to D# from E. Better than halfway, but not all the way. My first move was to give it more travel by moving the set screw, which at that point had about 6 threads visible between the screw head and the locking nut. I thought I’d just put it all the way in to see if the string would lower enough and possibly more than enough without the stop.
That’s when the nylon tuners first caught on the edge of the endplate. I’m now going to try setting the stop with 3 threads showing and hope it will lower the string all the way without the tuners catching.
But, man, that bothers me. That really shouldn’t be happening. Anyone have an idea on this? Should I cut a quarter inch off the end of the tuners, maybe?
Meanwhile, here are some more shots underneath and one of the stuck tuners. The person who rebuilt this guitar never mentioned anything about John Coop parts.
Gene Haugh said the guitar was built in 1976.
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Richard Park
From:
Alexandria, Virginia
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 11:49 am
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| Well, I've got the tuners going in and out smoothly without catching, but I still can't get all the way to D#. There is considerable movement in the lever before it actually engages the pull rods. Should I advance the rollers on the rods? |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 12:19 pm
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I'm not sure, but; I don't think those are original bellcranks (pullers)! Another more serious thing that I see deeply concerning is those helper-springs. If you look under the guitar, just ahead of the changer you'll see there is a spring attached to the raise portion of every string. They are anchored on one common plate about 3” or more away from the changer. These springs are defeating the lowering process! you try to Lower a string, but; these tension-springs are trying to Raise the pitch. Almost no one even installs helper-springs when building guitars nowadays! Pull those helper-springs off of every string on that guitar that both Raises and Lowers at one time or another. (Both necks) If the string only Raises you can leave the helper spring, but; if a string Lowers, get rid of that helper-spring, pulling in the other direction! In fact, you can remove all 20-helper-springs and throw them away and you'll be surprised how much better and easier all your pedals and knee-levers will work!!!! Get rid of all those helper-spring and your problems will end!!! I'm talking about the springs that lie under the pull-rods, next to the body. They're useless and will mess up the whole functioning of the changer! _ _ _ Another thing: After removing the helper-springs, turn all the nylon-tuners until almost all the extra travel is removed and then tune the guitar and begin by readjusting all your pedal and KL-stops. Then fine-tune with the nylon-tuners. You've got it all right there and it looks like that guitar should work very well, if adjusted correctly! Good looking undercarriage, although the bellcranks only appear to have three choices for leverage! 4 or 5 would be better. Also, remember that all pull-rods need to run through the bridge parallel to the body. (90° to the changer)
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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