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Topic: Can't keep my pedal steel in tune! |
Josh Sharpe
From:
Waycross, Georgia, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 12:07 am |
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Hey Fellow Forumites,
I'm am having horrible trouble keeping my steel in tune. Its a Carter Starter so I know it isn't the cream of the crop. But, I haven't had the first problem with this until about a month ago. It'll only stay in tune for about 2 songs. It is mainly the pedals and knees. And it doesn't go really far out just enough to notice.
So, I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions of things I might try. I really want to try fixing it myself as I'm more than a little broke. But, if I have to I can figure out a way to pay someone to fix it. So, if that turns out to be the case, does anyone know anyone that works on PSG's near South-East, Georgia?
Any ideas?
Thanks Everybody,
Josh Sharpe
912-282-0462
_________________
S-10 Carter. Peavey Nashville 112.
Bands I'm in :
American Anodyne http://www.americananodyne.com
Floorboard Songs http://www.reverbnation.com/floorboardsongs |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 3:53 am
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| I'm pretty sure if you call Carter they will be able to help you. Just be ready with an exact description of what is going on. Happy Trails |
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Terry Kinnear
From:
Erie ,Pennsylvania
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 4:49 am
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I had the same problem,with that steel .I found out that the changer was junk..I could tune it across,but when i would tune the pedals, it was a train wreck. I finally got fed up , and bought me a mullen G2. [ gave the that starter away].the guy who got it put in a new changer and it worked ok,i guess. I don"t have that problem ,any more. good luck josh. tk
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Terry Kinnear [ steel wondering] |
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Bob Simons
From:
Kansas City, Mo, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 5:40 am
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Change your strings.
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb. |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 9:12 am
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Oil the Changer top and bottom. It sounds like its sticking.
BD
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 9:29 am
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Carter Starters use a specific set of strings
b0b sells them too : J-CS-E9S
http://pedalsteelmusic.com/strings/E9.html
Carter-Starter E9, stainless wound (wound 6th)
.012 .015 .011 .014 .017 .022w .026 .030 .034 .036 |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 11:54 am
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Josh,
You said:
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| I'm am having horrible trouble keeping my steel in tune. Its a Carter Starter so I know it isn't the cream of the crop. But, I haven't had the first problem with this until about a month ago. |
What you didn't say was: Did you buy it new or used? That means a whole lot. Meaning, if you bought it new, then you know if it's ever been maintained (lubed every so often) properly for it to be able to work right, or not.
You're saying that after you tune it, it stays in tune for a couple of songs, before it goes out of tune.
Admittedly knowing nothing much about the Carter Starter, pedal steel. However, if you have nylon tuners at the end plate, with no pedals down, and no knee levers activated, make sure each of the pull rods have some free play at the Changer end. If they don't, there needs to be some free play to allow the changer pulls to return.
If you are sure you have the correct size strings on, I'd do this:
Back off each of your nylon tuners, until you have free end play.
Next, back off all of your strings to relieve the tension on the changer.
Then use light machine oil, and put a few drops down between each of the fingers, to be sure it gets down to the places it needs to be. "You can always wipe off the excess." Next, work each of the fingers, quite a few times, (by hand) to help get the oil into the areas it needs to be.
Put a drop of oil on the cross shafts at each end, and also, on the pedals, to make sure everything is working free, with no drag. Do the same with the knee lever pivot points, or where anything rubs against anything else in the (knee levers) area.
Place a small drop of oil, where the strings come over the Nut (rollers and axle shaft if so equiped).
Next, tune your steel Open using the tuning Key Heads.
Check to make sure all the nylon tuners are still backed off far enough to have free play. If any of them doesn't still have free play, back them off and retune those strings open at the Key Head again.
Note: "There has to be some free play on each of the pull rods, with pedals up, and no knee levers activated."
After you are sure that all is ok in that area, then go ahead and tune the pedals and knee levers.
Start by tuning the pulls that have the most travel, "the smaller gauged strings first" As in: 3rd String G# to A, then tune the 6 String G# to A. Likewise, with the 5 string B to C#, then tune the 10 string B to C#, etc.
After tuning them, make sure with the pedals up, there is still some free end play with each pull rod, at the changer end. If there is, she should play like a new one.
PS: I didn't get into pedal stops, nor any of that, because there shouldn't be any need to, as long as they are the correct string gauges, and you haven't adjusted any of that (if there are any on the Starter models)?
Let us know how you make out..... PS: There is nothing so bad you shouldn't be able to take care of it yourself........ Don |
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Josh Sharpe
From:
Waycross, Georgia, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 12:54 pm
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Thanks a lot everyone. I guess I should have mentioned that the strings are about 4 days old (and the correct gauges) and that I bought the steel new. I guess it hasn't been maintained properly. I'm still new to this and don't really know how to maintain it. I guess from what everyone is saying, I should "lube, lube, lube".
Mr. Brown, I'm not sure what you mean by "back off". And I'm not sure what the "fingers" or "cross shafts" are. I'm assuming "free play" means a bit of slack before the pedals or knees are engaged...
I apologize for my ignorance on all this. I'm still pretty new and have been afraid to mess with any of the mechanics of this steel as I'm clueless!
Thanks Again Everyone!,
Josh
_________________
S-10 Carter. Peavey Nashville 112.
Bands I'm in :
American Anodyne http://www.americananodyne.com
Floorboard Songs http://www.reverbnation.com/floorboardsongs |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 1:22 pm
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Hi Josh,
No need to feel bad about not knowing what the different things are. Since you're a new player, let me say that none of us knew much at all about them, until we first started playing. 
I'll try explaining what you don't understand, as soon as I get back, if someone else hasn't by then.
Between everyone on here, we'll get you up and running again.  ......... Don |
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Josh Sharpe
From:
Waycross, Georgia, USA
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 3:33 pm Carter Starter
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| The "fingers" are the individual parts of the bridge that enable the string raises and lowers to work. After you release the tension on the strings and move them aside slightly, put a few drops of a light machine oil (Marvel Mystery Oil or sewing machine oil works well among others,DO NOT USE WD 40!) in between the fingers and oil the rollers on the roller nut (keyhead end) as well. The cross shafts mentioned are the metal bars that run from front to back on your guitar that the pull rods attach to, oil the ends where they attach to the body. You might also apply a little oil to the pedals on the pedal bar. In other words, if it moves, it should be oiled occassionally....The term,"back off" means to loosen the nylon tuning nuts on the end plate to the point that when you engage the pedals and levers, they have no effect on the strings. Then follow Don's instructions. (Free play means that the there should be a SLIGHT amount of travel in the pull rod before the nylon tuning nut engages the changer finger)....Hope this long winded explanation is of some help. Any further questions, feel free to contact me...Best of luck. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 5:52 pm
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Hey Josh,
Here is a real good place to start finding out how things work on it.
click here for the "Carter Starter" Site with How to do, as well as naming the parts
That will give you a good insight of the things you'll want to know.
And, should you need more help, simply post back, and don't be ashamed of not knowing. I've said before, "the only dumb question, is the one that was never asked...."
Now that we know you bought it new, and have the right strings on it. That'a a big step in knowing how to best help from here on out. Yes! Lube will probably do it, along with the other steps already mentioned.
Thanks Dave & the others who've helped Josh. Let's see how we make out in getting him up and running. Just think, it will make his Christmas much better, having a steel to play, as it will ours too for helping out someone in need........... Don |
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Josh Sharpe
From:
Waycross, Georgia, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 6:06 pm
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Thanks so much everybody! I'm going to work on her tomorrow first thing. And thanks Dave for telling me not to use WD40. That's exactly what I was planning on using!! I'll see if I can find that Marvel Mystery Oil or something comparable at the auto parts store.
I'll let everyone know how I make out.
Thanks again!,
Josh
_________________
S-10 Carter. Peavey Nashville 112.
Bands I'm in :
American Anodyne http://www.americananodyne.com
Floorboard Songs http://www.reverbnation.com/floorboardsongs |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 6:15 pm
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Josh,
New strings tend to need a little stretching out at first before they settle in. If you have a lot of winds on the key, the slack may take a little longer to tighten up. I usually manually pull on the strings a bit to get them to stabilize. I have a Starter too, and it actually stays in tune pretty well. Anything that rolls and all friction contact points like a little sewing machine oil once or twice a year.
Clete |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 13 Dec 2009 2:55 am
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ok, first and most basic question,
How many wraps did you wind on the tuner peg when you changed the strings ? It should be at least 5 with a very good mechanical bend.
Of course there are several things that can cause a tuning issue but the first is always, especially after changing strings, the procedure used to install new strings.
When placing the string thru the tuner peg as you are winding, you must maintain a good consistent tug on the string to keep it tight while winding or the mechanical bend will move.
At least 5 wraps with a good mechanical bend, , tune to pitch, pull the string gently to"stretch it" tune to pitch again, gently pull the string again , tune to pitch... Sometimes brand new strings may require a few minutes to "seat" , this is not uncommon but it will never seat if the wind or the mechanical bend is not correct at the tuner peg.
Pedal Steels PULL strings, the entire concept is based on the tuner peg wrap being solid.
I would start there, it's the easiest thing to check.
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Marco Schouten
From:
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Posted 13 Dec 2009 8:06 am
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Since the string are new, they will stretch.
Push all pedals and knee levers several times, retune and repeat a few times. I oil the guitar every time I change the strings.
_________________
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JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2009 12:15 pm
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| it's my opinion that a new steel shouldn't require more than a small shot of lps1 or tri-flo every 6 months or so. i'm amazed that so many people would recommend such massive lubing. i would check with the manufacturer on that. i imagine that once the strings and new instrument settle in, and you get the feel for the mechanics, it will be fine. |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Dec 2009 3:22 pm
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| Billy Phelps just recorded a CD using a Carter Starter. Sounds great. Jody. |
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Josh Sharpe
From:
Waycross, Georgia, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2009 12:28 am
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Sewing machine oil worked great! Stays in tune for a whole set now! Thanks again everyone! I'll definitely lubing more regularly now (as opposed to never ha).
Josh
_________________
S-10 Carter. Peavey Nashville 112.
Bands I'm in :
American Anodyne http://www.americananodyne.com
Floorboard Songs http://www.reverbnation.com/floorboardsongs |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Dec 2009 4:18 am
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Good news !
but I do have to say that I have not lubed my 2004 Carter D10 in well over a year and there are no stay in tune issues at all, when it's not in tune it's the players fault not the Instrument. I too can't imagine any modern era changer needing to be lubed to stay in tune but I guess it's possible in this case. Learn somethin' new everyday !
glad it's all worked out.
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 19 Dec 2009 9:57 am
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Hi Josh
Glad to hear you got her back playing as she ought to. That's what counts, and it didn't cost you a dime! 
Lubrication is the #1 key to having a pedal steel that plays well, second only to improper setup, for not playing well nor returning true.
Have fun playing,,,,,,,,, Don |
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Shawn Brown
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Dec 2009 10:27 am
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| I had the pleasure of hearing Josh and his band play at the annual Gram Parsons Guitar Pull in September. To my ears, Josh's playing and intonation were great for his band's entire set. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 19 Dec 2009 10:40 am
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Tony, you said:
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| I too can't imagine any modern era changer needing to be lubed to stay in tune but I guess it's possible in this case. |
What does a modern era changer, have to do with anything? The fact that the fingers still rotate on a shaft, they're both made of metal, and it's a well known fact that shafts need to be lubricated, as does anything else, in one way or another. So, I fail to see the reasoning in your point of view.
You might be surprised at just what your axle shaft might look like if you were to take it apart.
Even sealed bearings packed with lube, regardless of what's advertised as good for a lifetime. Yes! What they fail to say is: "Good for the lifetime of the bearing itself." By now you'd think folks would know there is nothing good for a lifetime, regardless how it's advertised to be so.
Again, unless you have sealed needle bearing fingers, cross shafts, pedals, etc., they do need a drop of lube from time to time, just as well as anything else that contacts other pieces of metal. Even permanent lubed bushings you'll find aren't so permanent if they're let go without a bit of lube from time to time.  |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 20 Dec 2009 8:55 am
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what I said was I didn't think that for a modern era new changer "lubrication" was not a primary cause for a Steel to go out of tune. One string, sure, two, especially the E's.if this was a guitar being used regularly week after week month after month, ..... It was mentioned that the Steel was restrung 4 days earlier before the bad tuning thing became an issue.
Historically Pedal steel Guitars go out of tune because of bad strings or bad STRINGING...not from lubrication.
Of course mechanical parts need to be lubricated, but a Steel guitar changer ? How often ? Certainly not on a regular routine basis.
How about the strings not even connected to a lever or a pedal, are they going out of tune too ?
My only point of even responding was to appropriately advise that the number one culprit for a Pedal Steel going out of tune after changing strings is A: a bad string B: The string has a bad bend on the tuner key post with possibly not enough wraps.
If someone wants to lube the changer before checking the easy stuff then that's fine by me....
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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