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Topic: U12 E9/B6 8X5 Copedent question |
Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 5:50 pm |
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Ive put most of these changes on my U12 Fessenden I recently got from Mike Perlowin:
This is loosely based on a copedent suggested by b0b in a previous thread here.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
F# G
D# D C#
G# A
E F# E F D#
B C# C# C# Bb
G# A A#
F# F G
E D F D#
B C# C D
G# A
E Eb F F
B G# C# |
I've switch LKR and RKR from b0bs, and changed LKR to string 1&2 raise, 6 lower.
I put the strings 1&7 F# raise on P8. I added pedal 8 since the crossbar was already there.
Thanks go to Jerry Fessenden for rods, tuners, pedal, shaft, etc.
I'd have gotten the few bellcranks I needed from him as well if they were available.
Thanks to Jerry Roller for those.
What suggestions can anyone make on this,
as I have no experience playing U12 (or C6 for that matter).
Im especially concerned about pedal 8 and LKR.
Also pedal 3 string 8. Thanks in advance.
Clete |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 10:38 am
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Just a thought, but if I had that guitar I'd switch your RKL to RKR and your LKL to RKL.
Also I'd drop the 9th string lower on the B string from the verticle knee lever as it'd work better with the Universal concept that way.
The raise on the 9th string B to D, I'd lose and put a lower on LKR to drop the 8th string to D. That way you could eliminate pedal 6 and use the knee lever for that. It'd be useful in E9 or B6 that way.
I'd move pedal 8 to the pedal 1 slot and then you'd have the "Brumley" pedal which is very useful and then move your A, B & C pedals to slots 2, 3, & 4.
I'd then move pedals 4 , 5 & 7 over so they'd be 6, 7, & 8.
You'd then have pedal 5 free to do something else like maybe a "Issacs" pedal which would raise the 5th string to C# & the 6th string to A...
Finally I'd move LKR to LKL and I think that'd do it.
Congratulations on getting that guitar from Mike. I know it's a good one as he takes great care of his instruments for sure...........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 4:26 am
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Jerry,
Thanks for taking time to study my copedent and make suggestions.
I appreciate that. All I know is S10 E9 3x5, so there's much to learn!
I've juggled Excel around as follows:
Please let me know if this looks right.
I've a few more newbie questions!
Some folk don't include several of the lower string changes,
specifically P2-string 12, P4-string 8 and RKL-string 11.
Should I remove those too?
If not, should RKR also lower string 11 to mirror the RKL raises?
Also, I'm unsure about RKR-string 2.
Im beginning to think fewer pulls may advantageous,
in regards to tuning stability and cabinet drop,
as well as making the pedals a little easier.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks,
Clete
If you put your two cents in, but only get a penny for your thoughts, where does the other penny go?  |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 2:40 pm
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Clete, RKR string two looks good, that gives you the same voicing as a C6th neck with a D note on top.
Also, I don't know of too many players who pull their 12th string B to C# on their A pedal, a few do but I think the majority don't. I don't think any manufacturers have their U-12s with that standard.
Also, you don't want to have the 11th string E lower to D# (Eb) on your RKR which lowers strings 4 & 8. That's one of the great voicings of the 6th type tuning, having that low E sting and using it with some lower register grips. Try this:
Go to the 8th fret with the E's lowered. Grip the 6th, 8th, and 11th strings and play them. Then back up to the 6th fret and move everything up one string playing the 5th, 7th, and 10th strings. Play the grip once at the 6th fret, play it again at the 7th fret, and again at the 8th fret. Then you can reverse the order and wind up where you started. You'll hear what I'm talking about when you try this exercise.......JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 4:03 pm
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| Jerry Hayes wrote: |
...Also, I don't know of too many players who pull their 12th string B to C# on their A pedal... |
Lower string 12 from B>A on the A-pedal, while the other B's (strings 5 & 10) go from B>C#.
You will love this change. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 5:12 pm
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
| Jerry Hayes wrote: |
...Also, I don't know of too many players who pull their 12th string B to C# on their A pedal... |
Lower string 12 from B>A on the A-pedal, while the other B's (strings 5 & 10) go from B>C#.
You will love this change. |
When I played U-12 I thought it was nice to leave the low string on B while the A pedal pulled the higher B strings. This allows B9 and B11 etc with a nice low root. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 5 Dec 2009 1:38 am
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Thanks again for "chiming" in folks.
Pete,
Im going to put the B>A lower on P2 string 12 as you suggest and see how it feels. It'll be easy enough to loosen the tuner and try it both ways.
Jerry,
Im used to the E levers on the left knee on my S10, so it will take some retraining to learn, but I understand the logic of having them on the right knee (at least the lowers) so the B6 pedals and all left levers are easier to use.
Is there any benefit to having the E lowers on RKR? It seems that it might be easier to use RKL, especially for extended periods.
Clete |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Dec 2009 7:44 am
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In my opinion, one of the secrets of a great U12 setup, is to have the pedals and knees positioned so that one can use both feet when and where needed, and not have to reposition either leg.
I lower my Es on RKL and can easily hold that lever and use my right foot on the 6th pedals whenever I like. And it's not awkward. Same for the left leg...I don't have to move out from between left knee levers to get to the 6th pedals.
I know some may have physical reasons why it won't work for them, but I set up all my U12 guitars this way and it makes flowing between the 6th and E9 modes very easy and fluid....just one very big copedant.  At least it works for me.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 5 Dec 2009 10:55 am
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I've always favored the RKR for lowering of the E strings as did Jeff Newman and others. One reasoning I've heard is it's more natural.
Do this exercise. Sit in a chair with both legs in front of you with your knees about a foot or more apart. Then just relax your legs and let them fall where they may. You'll find that they fall apart so your right let goes to the right. They don't come together which would be the movement of RKL. It's just like most other movements, it's easier to push than it is to pull.......JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 5 Dec 2009 1:57 pm U12
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| If you are used to the E's on the left knee leave them there on your uni. You can then play a ten string if you want the way you are comfortable. Kicking LKR for E-Eb puts your foot right over the B6th pedals. I personally no longer like the E's on the right side anywhere since I use them so much- it affects the volume pedal too much for me. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 5 Dec 2009 2:31 pm
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My Mullen S10 E9 is what I rehearse, record and perform with and hasn't changed.
This Fessenden is really an ongoing experiment. I've only been playing steel for around 3 years now (and this is my third steel). I wanted a U12 to have more strings and pedals and to get into C6 mode somewhat. This gives me the opportunity to try different arrangements of pulls etc. at my leisure at home. Besides, the Fessenden is really pretty easy to reconfigure. I wanted to put changes that were a little different from the Mullen, just to see what its like. Kinda like playing a Day setup after learning on an Emmons setup, though having the E's on the right is different enough for now! I can always add more confusion later.
One thing I just noticed as Im working on it is that my P5 "Issac" change is asking more than it can do. I've only got 3 raises and lowers, and P5 makes 4 raises on string 5. What is another option for P5?
Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions!
Clete |
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Ken Brower
From:
North Haledon, New Jersey, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2009 2:31 pm
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Clete, I have Mike’s tuning chart as a reference and it is quite different than the set-up I am using. What I like about this set up is that there are 4 pedals for the E9 mode and 4 pedals for the B6 mode. I, like you, played only a single neck E9 before getting my Fessenden 12.
The most significant change, other than pedals 2, 3, & 4 actually operate as 1, 2 & 3 because of the Zero pedal, is that the E’s are lowered to Eb using the RKL lever versus the LKR lever. The RKL lever puts my steel into B6 mode and allows my left leg to be free to move around to reach all 8 pedals. It took a while to get use in the E9 mode but now I wouldn’t go back. Sometimes I’m jumping from pedals 7 & 8 down to pedals 2 & 3 with the RKL lever engaged.
For those just reading this, my Fessy is set up with a zero pedal that lowers the two higher G# strings down to G and raises the lower G# to A. This provides a powerful and warm minor 11th chord. When pedals zero and 1 are pushed down together you get this funky A 7/6 chord.
The LKR lever is set up for the Paul Franklin copedent and his particular preference for string 7. It raises the 1st string to G#, 2nd string to E and lowers the 7th string down to E. When engaged every string on this 12 is an E, G# or B. It sounds like 24 strings!
I am still learning how to play in the B6 mode with pedals 5 thru 8. Let us know how you set up your Fessenden.
Ken
_________________
Fessenden S-12 8+5 w/Zero Pedal, Dobro D2, National Resolectric and a dozen or so Guilds, 3 acoustics and the rest electrics |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 11 Dec 2009 4:12 am
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| Ken Brower wrote: |
...a zero pedal that lowers the two higher G# strings down to G and raises the lower G# to A...
The LKR lever [...] raises the 1st string to G#, 2nd string to E and lowers the 7th string down to E...Ken |
Ken,
Thanks so much for your post!
Ive got P0 setup differently (called P1 in chart below), but your P0 and LKR are the changes I've incorporated into my copedent, though at different locations. I was looking for a P5 and RKL change. Here's what I've got now:
I get giant 7th chords plus a host of other chord options across most of the neck.
My P5 was inspired by your post. It acts as an alternate minor in B6. Its also nice to have G raises on the left of the C pedal, and G lowers on the right side of it. Notice it has a symmetry with the E levers left and right. I changed the E raises back to LKL, so I dont have to relearn most of my E9 Emmons habits. Im already getting used to the E levers on different legs though (LKL raises, RKR lowers).
The Franklin change I put on RKL. I've a half stop on the 1st string F# raise to G/G# which is a nice option. I also have a half stop on LKR string 8, which gives me a low major and dominant 7th to fill out E9.
I think I've got a Universal copedent I can be happy with for quite some time, although I am contemplating a locking RKR E lower lever somehow. 
Im learning a great deal about the B6 side of the tuning using RKR and pedals 5-8, and Im finding single note solo lines a bit easier in B6 than E9. This U12 is so much fun, I wont be playing the 10 string for a while!
Thanks to all who posted comments, suggestions, copedents, etc.
Clete |
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Chip Fossa
From:
Monson, MA, USA (deceased)
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Posted 11 Dec 2009 12:42 pm
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Clete,
Yeah, I'm another U-ee, and also drop string 12 to "A" with pedal 1.
As EB mentioned previously, just keeping string 12 at "B" is also advantageous.
FWIW
_________________
Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 12 Dec 2009 6:55 am
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Clete, I don't know how much you're into rock or power chords on steel but if you are there's another change which is great on a Universal. What you do is add a change on your "C" pedal which raises the 11th string E to F#. Then using your low B string as the root you just hold the C pedal down and rock on and off of your B pedal, think "Memphis" or "Honky Tonk". To see how it works just bar the 11th string E at the second fret and then play around with those bottom three strings and see what you have..........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 14 Dec 2009 11:15 pm
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| Jerry Hayes wrote: |
| ...add a change on your "C" pedal which raises the 11th string E to F#. |
Jerry,
As soon as I put this on the C pedal, I instantly heard lots of voicings in the lower register Ive been missing. I originally had the 8th string E>F# raise on pedal C, but this sounds much better.
The C pedal seems a bit of an anomaly on C6, Im not quite sure why, but there's a few threads on alternatives. As I learned on E9, I like to use the BC combo. Besides the A pedal, that's where I get most of my minor chords. Adding that low F# reinforces the BC minor very nicely for me, as well as those low power chords you mentioned. 
Thanks again!
Here's what my copedent looks like now:
I put an unusual change on P5, but it works with most of the other changes for some interesting progressions.
Clete |
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Ken Brower
From:
North Haledon, New Jersey, USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2009 8:35 pm
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Clete, it's great to see how much fun you're having putting together the Fessy 12.
While looking back over this thread I saw Jerry Hayes' post about dropping the low B down to A on pedal 1. I tried it out for myself ... You're right Jerry, I love it. It's a keeper!
_________________
Fessenden S-12 8+5 w/Zero Pedal, Dobro D2, National Resolectric and a dozen or so Guilds, 3 acoustics and the rest electrics |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 19 Dec 2009 6:08 am
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Ken, that's actually Pete and Earnest's idea to drop the low B to A........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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