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Topic: Just some deep thought about steel players.............. |
Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 2:59 pm |
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For those of you that accept/promote the idea of heavy rock type drums in our lil' country groups.... I can't help but wonder, if you as a steel player, truly appreciate what all you've lost and continue to miss by leaning in that direction?
I've been listening to a whole bunch of 1950's King, country records lately and the ever-lasting, sustaining chords of strong rythmn guitar players like Louie Innis and countless others from that era.......so very much enhanced the sounds of steel guitar players.......it's hard to imagine why/how one might today, simply ignore the wonderful, complimentary impact that is present with a good rythmn guitar player in the group.
Not advocating you change your mind........but, when the loss of a tremendously important asset like the full chords of a rythmn guitar augmenting the great sounds of a steel guitar....... how can concern over cabinet drop exceed that of non-rythmn guitar groups?
What's your take on it? |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 5:13 pm
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Yes Ray you are right . With a good rythum player and bass player and drummer that is hard to beat . Myself i like the solid country beat to play along with . I don't want to be in a contest with a bass player as to who knows the most licks !  This does happen at times i think . Solid rythum is the thing for me . Just my two cents . G.P. |
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Ernest Cawby
From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 5:21 pm oh
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In my humble opinion the bass player is is the heart beat of a band, old country, that is, one that has a solid feel for old country music. I also like the cgop rythm like on Hank williams records. Hanks rythm guitar player spent a lot of rime with us at the american guitar studio, and showed me this type of playing, and I have loved it ever since.
ernnie |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 7:21 pm
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I've always said that my wife Pat is my better three quarters (As opposed to Better Half)
Other than my Gigs with Bob Brolly, I refuse to play without her, and will only augment with an acoustic bass. NO DRUMS, NO UKULELES or any other instruments other than a GOOD solo guitarist and maybe a vibes player.
I've yet to find a player that can keep up with her innate sense of rhythm and dynamics.
Just listen to her playing the "A augmented seventh, flat five, flat 9" in this tune :- CLICK HERE
The chord is at the place indicated in the video, it's where we pause. You can go to the tune by clicking the time given in my comment under the video, likewise with the aforementioned A7+b5b9.
I stole the chord from Django and gave it to Pat just over 50 years ago.. She uses it as an augmented seventh flat 5 flat 9, OR as a Ninth flat fifth !!
(From the bass string it's Bb-Eb-G-C#-F-A which makes it the name I've used, OR Eb9b5 !)
NOTE it can only be played using the thumb as well.
There IS a version with better sound quality, but somehow it's gone out of sync slightly. Click Here
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——> |
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Tommy Shown
From:
Denham Springs, La.
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 10:26 pm
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Being a former bass player. A really great band needs a good rythum section,(bass, acoustic guitar and drums). But not a rock drummer or rock bass player. I don't mean to slam drummers, because my mother was a big band drummer back in the 1940's, in Southeastern Ohio.But a lot of drummers think they're PRIMADONAS. I have worked with some that had attitude as big as Texas. And I have worked with some that were humble and down to earth. Heavy rock licks on the drum is not what Country Music, I mean Real Country Music is about. I remember back in the early 1970's watching "HEE HAW" on TV, one Saturday evening. I caught a glimpse of Willie Ackerman. Willie played a good set of drums. he and the bass, and the guitar player worked well in keeping the beat steady for the steel, lead and fiddle man. Along with the bass man. The band worked as a team and didn't try to upstage the singer or the others.
Tommy Shown
SMFTBL |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 6:43 am
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Here's a vote for Marty Stuart's drummer. Always perfect for the song.  |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 7:12 am
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| Quote: |
| heavy rock type drums |
I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. Are you referring to the drums or the player?
I've played with several fine drummers that had complete control of their volume and dynamics. I believe a really good drummer can add a lot to the mix. For me, it's truly a pleasure to play with an accomplished drummer that knows how to be part of the ensemble.
Lee, from South Texas |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 7:30 am
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So Ray, what's your preference when playing ? Drums or no drums ?
Personally I'm of the same mind as Jonathan and Darlene Edwards.. 
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Were there any special problems, Jonathan, that you as producer encountered in reworking a recent hit song?
J.E.: The band that played on the record did the best it could, but the boys were very frightened because they weren't accustomed to dealing with 7/4 bars and sudden changes in tempo which are part of my style . . . my actual trademark.
Well, it's probably pretty difficult for any musician to really follow you. After all, you've invented your own style.
J.E.: That's true, and we've had other problems in the past. We had to let Jack Sperling go, one of the top drummers in the country, because for some strange reason, he found what I was doing to be funny! He laughed -- actually cried! -- and I had to let him go. But then I found another drummer who thought it was pretty normal, although I'm not allowed to use his name. |
http://www.counterpoint-music.com/specialties/interview.html |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 7:39 am
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| basilh wrote: |
I've always said that my wife Pat is my better three quarters (As opposed to Better Half)
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The moment I started reading Ray's comments I thought of Pat and Basil. Pat lays down a constant and consistent rhythm and rarely makes an error. The value of a good rhythm guitarist is often overlooked. A constant rhythm that can be relied on brings out the best in the rest of the band. |
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Paul E. Brennan
From:
Dublin, Ireland
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 7:50 am
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| Quote: |
| Here's a vote for Marty Stuart's drummer. Always perfect for the song. Cool |
And he sings great harmony as well! I'd love to have this guy in my band. |
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Paul E. Brennan
From:
Dublin, Ireland
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 7:59 am
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| Quote: |
| I stole the chord from Django and gave it to Pat just over 50 years ago. |
Did you first hear it in Django's Nuages, Basil? That's where I first heard these chords. Or at least that's where I first took note. I'd been hearing them long before that in Herb Alpert's music.
Of course whether you use a b5, #5, b9, #9, etc depends on where the melody is going..... but you know that....  
I used to listen to you playing those sneaky little chords during the Sunday afternoon jazz session in the Goldsmith Tavern, Athlone. That's when I realised I didn't know as much about the guitar as I thought I did. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 9:52 am
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Herb Alpert, you've been listening too much to Frankie McDonald again..How are they all?.
Sure used to enjoy the Sunday Jazz sessions at the Goldsmith..You're right of course, I first heard that chord on Django's Nuages, AND The use of it in the rhythm section of Sweet Georgia Brown, in F, where Joseph played it as a D9b5 and then dropped down a semitone and called it G+7etc and then down a further semi and called it C9b5. An interesting exercise in alternate names..
Slán agus Beannacht Leat |
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Ray McCarthy
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 10:34 am
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| Great stuff, Basil! I love your unique style of jazzy Hawaiian! |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 10:41 am
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Thanks Ray, I MUST apologise to the "Skipper" his post is all about the tremendous asset a GOOD Rhythm Guitarist is, I applaud him for that, It's something I've also been aware of ever since I taught Pat guitar so long ago..
Today is special to Pat and myself as its my birthday and start of the only part of the year where Pat and I are BOTH 66, she can't boss me (Not much) for the next few months. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 12:31 pm
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Ray,
I don't understand how having a drummer who plays rock style drums takes away the value of having a good rythm guitarist?
Also,the wages for musicians around here (speaking for the Portland,Or. area) is insulting.
More often then not a group can't afford to pay another member.
Sad but true.
Rick |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 4:11 pm Oh My...................
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Did I say that?
Here we go again! I make a post to get feed- back from other Forum members and someone always feels obliged to step up and attempts to make it a fist fight scenario, implying that I said this or that!
SIMPLY STATED: My comment was about the great musical enhancement one can get from a strong rythm guitar player in a small group.......particularly if you play steel guitar. The ringing of the strings on the standard guitar greatly compliment the melody that the steel player is endeavoring to impart to the song. That's all.
I said nothing to give ANY DRUMMER an inferiority complex.
Basil.....In a small country group, I'd prefer an accoustic rythmn guitar player and accoustic bass before selecting any other musicianship. Your wife does a great, great job! Love it! You're so lucky to have her in your bag o'tricks! |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 4:31 pm
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Ray - I certainly hope you are not implying that I was trying to "make it a fist fight scenario". I am one of the most passive people you will ever meet.
I didn't imply you said anything. I just quoted what you said and asked for a clarification.
Lee
The Quiet, Passive Guy from South Texas |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 4:40 pm Okay....................
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Hey there quiet passive guy from Texas...........Not at all, regarding your comments/question.
A really great drummer, IMHO, is as difficult to find today, as a great rythmn guitar player.
Ricky Skaggs, at the time he put out his first couple of albums, toured out to Oregon and had one of the most fabulous drummers I've EVER heard! It was quite exciting just to watch how he applied himself within the band and in each and every song.
I'm far more impressed with a drummer who has situational awareness........and can play a SOLID, soft sounding beat with brushes instead of the drum and bugal corps variety that has only discovered the great BIG HEAVY END of the stick and is obsessed with rim-shots.
It's been my experience, as limited as it is, that folks with a jazz background can quite often more readily adapt to 4 & 5 piece groups. |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 5:19 pm
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It's so hard to find anyone good today, not just in music,but everything,that's what I keep hearing from older people. You name it,it was better in the old days.I'm 70 years old,and try very hard not to think that way. Ray, I've been playing steel for 55 years,and I think that you wouldn't give two cents to hear me play,or cross the street,I could never be good enough. Why hear me,when you can play a Jerry Byrd record.Sometimes I just want give it all up,but the band I play with wants me to keep going. That loud,young drummer,loud young bass player,I'll keep playing with then,I fit right in,I'm not that good and I don't have to be.
So far we are book next year for 28 gigs. Joe |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 3 Dec 2009 6:39 pm
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| Ray - It just so happens that the drummers I mentioned were all accomplished jazz drummers. Their talents and feel for music fit in quite nicely with traditional country dance bands. They had great stick control and the ability to play with zeal, yet were never too loud. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 10:33 am Fist Fights Are No Fun
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| Quote: |
[quote="Ray Montee"]Did I say that?
Here we go again! I make a post to get feed- back from other Forum members and someone always feels obliged to step up and attempts to make it a fist fight scenario, implying that I said this or that! |
Ray,
I don't need to nor would I want to raise my fists to point out where it seems as though you were implying that incorporating rock style drums in a musical group diminishes the importance of a good rythm guitarist.
| Quote: |
For those of you that accept/promote the idea of heavy rock type drums in our lil' country groups.... I can't help but wonder,if you as a steel player, truly appreciate what all you've lost and continue to miss by leaning in that direction?
I've been listening to a whole bunch of 1950's King, country records lately and the ever-lasting, sustaining chords of strong rythmn guitar players like Louie Innis and countless others from that era.......so very much enhanced the sounds of steel guitar players.......it's hard to imagine why/how one might today, simply ignore the wonderful, complimentary impact that is present with a good rythmn guitar player in the group.
Not advocating you change your mind........but, when the loss of a tremendously important asset like the full chords of a rythmn guitar augmenting the great sounds of a steel guitar....... how can concern over cabinet drop exceed that of non-rythmn guitar groups? |
I put in bold print, every word that you used which lead me to my conclusion.
| Quote: |
| I said nothing to give ANY DRUMMER an inferiority complex. |
Actually, I'm a rock guitarist who recently decided to make an attempt at playing steel guitar.
For the purpose of using steel guitar in a rock band.
Rick
Last edited by Rick Schacter on 5 Dec 2009 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tyler Hall
From:
Mt. Juliet, TN
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 12:20 pm
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If the man that writes the checks likes a drummer, then I just love them! I also prefer to setup on whichever side of the stage he tells me too. Also, I find chords with the blue wrapping around the plug seem to not sound as good as all black chords.
Just an observation... 
_________________
www.joshturner.com
www.ghsstrings.com |
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Roger Crawford
From:
Griffin, GA USA
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 12:32 pm
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| Our drummer, bless his heart, has the ability to play as solid and tasteful as you could ask for. He does, however, have (and over uses)a double kick drum pedal. I have yet to hear him use that appropriatly. We do classic county music, and it always sounds like a train wreck when he gets going on that. And Tyler, the man writing the check is his bother-in-law! |
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Tyler Hall
From:
Mt. Juliet, TN
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 12:35 pm
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Naturally...
Good drummers are few and far between, just like good bass players, and good steel players...
_________________
www.joshturner.com
www.ghsstrings.com |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 4 Dec 2009 1:21 pm
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I have to say, I enjoy playing in as many contexts as possible. It's something I've worked hard at. I've gone from small acoustic quartets to loud Country Rock bands and more and there is good and bad in all of it. I enjoy discovering and exploiting all that the steel guitar is capable of. I'll admit, I have a long way to go, but I get immense pleasure from it.
I know many, many excellent drummers who are professional enough to play for the gig and don't have a problem being told they are too loud, when it is the rare case.
It is a challenge to help the steel guitar move forward without losing sight of the past.
_________________
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