Sho Bud D9 E9th neck setup

Bernhard Ballweg · From: Bielefeld, Germany

Hello to the members of the Steelguitar Forum.
After years of reading and learning from the comments here I have to thank you all for your help !

I play standard guitar for 30 years but I´m not too deep into playing Steelguitar, but I really love it and one tune and another came handy...
Love to hear and play Western Swing !

Right now I have a little problem with the pedal setup of my Sho Bud.It´s an old blonde "permanent" D9 with 6 pedals (3 each neck) and no knees. I have this guitar for a couple of years and used it as non-pedal. The undercarriage was removed but right now I fixed it. The puzzle is done and it seems to be complete.

I have no idea for the pedal use of the E9th neck, never played that tuning.
So now I will have a try to it and like to set up the E9th neck with pedals.
Pedal A could raise 2 strings
Pedal B could raise 2 strings
Pedal C could raise 1 string

What tuning could I use, better what string of the 10-string set is not for use and what pedal setup would you suggest to make it work ?

Thanks and best regards from Germany

Benny Ballweg

Stan Schober · From: Cahokia, Illinois, USA

Allo, Bernhard !

The undercarriage of your Perm D-9 should look similar to this.

With the D-9 being a transitional unit, Let's look backwards a bit.

when everyone was still playing 8 strings, the most common tuning was( high to low)

E
B
G#
F#
D
B
G#
E

it progressed eventually( thanks to Mr.'s Day and Mooney) to

G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
B
G#
E
( Your E9 neck was probably originally tuned to the last 9 strings of this tuning, omitting that high G#.)

and , eventually, Mr. Emmons replaced the last two strings with 7th and 9th notes at the bottom :

G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
B
F#
D#/Eb

These new notes were soon moved to the top, giving us the current standard tuning:

F#
D#/Eb
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
B

If you wish to play modern country music, ( and by "modern" I mean from the 60's until now...)
My choice would be to use either the first 9 strings of the modern tuning,
OR
Omit the low D, and move the B up into it's place.
My choice of copedant would be:

( Frankly, if the undercarriage parts are not original, and it were MY guitar...I would probaly find a way to use all 6 pedals on my E9 neck, and just continue to play the C6 neck as a non-pedal neck....) Laughing

_________________
Emmons S-8 P/P,DeArmond 40. Slowly drifting back towards sanity.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bernhard,
It's not fair to bring an old Permanent up for discussion without posting some pics !

Stan Schober · From: Cahokia, Illinois, USA

Bobby Burns · From: Tennessee, USA

I agree with john. Let's see those pictures!

Bernhard Ballweg · From: Bielefeld, Germany

Hi Stan,

thanks a lot for your quick response and your help !!!
That are a lot of informations that I could try now. Smile

Someone in the past painted the underside of my guitar in black, but the undercarriage looks nearly the same as yours. On the C6 neck the pedals could even lower some strigs and I´ll use this for easy backing chords.
The guitar has a volume and a tone knob, a pickup selector switch and each pickup has a switch for coil split. I really love the tone of this guitar.

@all:
of course I have to send some pics.

Thanks again !

Best wishes and have a nice day
Benny

These are my Console Steels:

Thomas Ludwig · From: Augsburg, Germany

Hi Benny,
nice steel collection. I didn't know that we have a Bigsby in Germany.

Gruß
Thomas

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Very nice bunch! ShoBud "Super" gumby with "Ducktail" changers! Great. Couple of years older than mine.

Stan Schober · From: Cahokia, Illinois, USA

Bernhard Ballweg · From: Bielefeld, Germany

Thanks for looking !

@Thomas: oh yes, there is a "Bigsby" in Germany Wink

But that´s another story...

@John, Stan: I love this guitar. The look and feel is great. I can´t say anything about what is original and what not. I haven´t seen the undercarriage before it was removed so I´m not shure. Right now it looks right. I removed the keyheads and the changers for cleaning. Then I´ll polish the body and screw it all together.
With the suggestions of Stan I`ll try the E neck and maybe there is something to change when I set it up.

Thanks again and I will let you know when it works.

best wishes
Benny Ballweg

Thomas Ludwig · From: Augsburg, Germany

Benny,
do you play in a band ?
Maybe I have the chanche to see and hear you live ?

Ciao
Thomas

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bernhard,
Here's what my '59 D-10 looks like underneath.

Your guitar appears to pull strings 1 and 9 with the first pedal. That would seem to indicate a G# on both those strings. So, I'm thinkin';
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
B
G#

Also the rods for the second and third pedals on your guitar seem to be going on an angle, which also may have them connected to the wrong fingers on the E9th changer. The rods on a Perm should be going in a straight line from the "permanent" bellcranks to the changer fingers, I believe.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Ya know,,,,, I just looked at your guitar some more. It's kinda confusing!
Stan, I'm not sure your copedant would work, because the bellcranks on a Perm are welded on and not moveable.
It looks to me as if the cross shafts aren't in the right places. To me, it looks like the cross shaft you have on the first pedal should actually be on the second pedal, to pull the G#s to As. The first pedal should have the cross shaft with the bell cranks that will pull B strings to C#. But you only have one cross shaft with two bellcranks. Easy to make and add on. Simple guitar to modify.
The thing is,,,, we have no idea what tuning was on the guitar originally! So, I could very easily be completely wrong!
Also notice that your guitar uses a cross shaft near the C6th changer as a "reverser", to change the pull to a lower. Much more elegant than the little pivoting deals on my guitar. But mine was cheaper to make and install!

Bernhard Ballweg · From: Bielefeld, Germany

John,

here´s a viev at the cross shafts:

They could be changed but I think they´re in the right place because of the springs.
The rods are out of place. I´ve removed the changers for cleaning.

Benny

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Thanks for that pic Bernhard! That makes it much clearer. And, yup,,, according to the springs, you've got them in the right place. I'm going to open up a folder I have of old ShoBuds, and see if I can figure anything else out.
If the tuning with the high G# were used, the second pedal would pull strings 1 and 4 up to A. That's standard. And it looks like pedal three would pull the 3rd string B up to C#. Day setup?
Maybe you can tell by changer finger wear patterns where the rods are supposed to go? If they were in the correct places in your earlier pic, the tuning is currently eluding me. Hmmmm,,, more though,,,,,,,

Bernhard Ballweg · From: Bielefeld, Germany

Thanks John !

As I have no idea of the original tuning I know that the changer fingers at each neck are not in the right place cause the changer units were completely disassembled when I got it. So I looked at it but wasn´t worried about that cause I didn´t use a pedal until now and the strings were not anchored at the changer fingers.

One way is to find out what tuning was once at my guitar and the other way that I prefer is setting it up for a try to the E9th tuning with the 3 pedals.

If the rods were not straight in a line from the bellcranks, it should be not a big problem cause there is jut a pull in the rods not a push, so they won´t bend .... what do you think ???

Benny

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Here's a couple of pics I found of another D-9 of about the same vintage. They show a couple of things. One, the springs aren't always in a straight line. And, two, the rods weren't always in a straight line, as I surmised! Things were changing rapidly at the time your guitar was built, and I think Shot soon realized that a "straight pull" was more efficient, and caused less binding and wear. And, of course, back then, if you ordered a guitar built, you could get any setup and tuning you wanted. That said, as I understand it, the guitars that weren't special orders were built to whatever Buddy was using at that time.
Check out the pedal arrangement on this guitar! What the heck was goin' on?

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"it should be not a big problem cause there is just a pull in the rods not a push, so they won´t bend"

I agree. With just three pedals on the E neck, they'll all be pulls. Lowers you will do with bar slants. The bending is reduced on the C6th neck by having the "reverser" cross shaft so close to the changer. The little, short rods to the fingers wouldn't bend as easily as a long rod. Notice also in the pics above, they did, and some makers still do, bend the pull rods to achieve a "straight pull" on the changer finger. Any pulling that is not straight, pulls the changer finger to the side, causing binding and wear problems.

Bernhard Ballweg · From: Bielefeld, Germany

I have now this setup at the E9 neck:

-----P1--P2--P3
F#
D#
G#-------A
E----F#
B----C#------C#
G#-------A
F#
E
B

It works and I will have a try with this tuning.

Thanks a lot for your help Stan and John !

Best wishes and regards
Benny Ballweg

Stan Schober · From: Cahokia, Illinois, USA

You are quite welcome !
I'd love to have an old 8 string of 9 string Bud ( or Bigsby...HA !)but I can't afford one.

How about a sound clip, if you get the chance ?
_________________
Emmons S-8 P/P,DeArmond 40. Slowly drifting back towards sanity.

Steve Waltz · From: USA

Bernhard,

You may have noticed already, but, on your C6th neck your second string pull is not hooked up. I don't see the rod. You can make a new one but you will have to bend the rod to go into the puller. I found heating up the rod at the bend makes that bend easier. Drilling through the rod for the cotter pin is not so easy so consider a small collar instead to hold the rod in place. You can also use that same collar behind the finger instead of the threaded rod, if the rest have that. If yours has threaded rods behind the fingers with a small nut, consider a very light thread lock as those move a lot without it and makes tuning a pain.

The pullers have multiple holes. Those will change how fast the pull happens.

The black is, to my knowledge, original. Everything on yours look similar to mine. I can't post a picture right now but I'll do it later.

One other thing I'm sure you noticed but just in case: Your rods in the picture don't show cotter pins. Those will fall out without those. You can see the tiny hole next to the pullers. Make sure you hve springs on the tunign screws to help hold them in place. The picture doesn't show any tuning screws but I'm sure you've put them on by now.

I looks to me like you can have a normal E9 three pedal set up on that guitar. Use a normal 10 string tuning but remove the top F# and D#, Pedal 1 raises Bs to C# which would be your new 3rd and 8th string, P2 raises G# at string 1 and 4 to A, P3 raises sring 2 from E to F# like a normal C pedal minus the B to C# raise.....you get a normal BC pedal combo by hitting all three pedals at once, that's why they are placed so close together. Now you have your 9th sting to add what you want. Does this makes sense to anyone? If you want to get your C pedal to do the F# and C# raise you could add two rods to one pull but tuning might be harder.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Good points Steve! My guitar, a '59, has both collars and threaded rods. The threaded rods have nuts, to which someone added brass "jam" nuts, so they don't slip.

Bernhard Ballweg · From: Bielefeld, Germany

what would I do without your thoughts and help !

@Stan
I shure will record some sound files... if you like to hear them Smile

But I need time to do that.

@Steve
As the undercarriage was totally removed when I got the guitar, I have screwed it all together to see if it´s right. the picture of the underside was taken then. I have to get some cotter pins but for the first try it´s ok without.
The tuning screws with springs are already installed.

I was a few times wondering about the first 3 very narrow pedals. But after reading your post it´s all very clear. I will try this setup too.

The C neck is the next project. I play it non pedal and consider a pedal setup for this later.

Steve, John what serial numbers have your guitars ?
Mine is stamped: 5 - 063 - 063

regards
Benny Ballweg

Steve Waltz · From: USA

If you are a non Pedal C6th player you are going to have fun with the C6th neck. Those three pedals are going to be usable quickly and will make sense. Pedal 4 while ignoring the 1st string will give you a big 7th sounding chord two frets down from your root. P5 once that other rod goes on will give you a another 7th chord at your home fret for your IV chord and it goes on. I think you will see your slants being done for you in those two pedals.

Let me know if you need help setting that up. Pedal stops are against the body and the finger must be set up so that the lower has enough travel to get the 1/2 tone lower which stops against the changer tuning screw. Tune the raise at the keyhead. That goes for P 4 and 5. Pedal 6 is two raises and tuned at the keyhead and then open at the changer finger tuning screws.

I don't know what my serial numbers are. I'll check later.
Consider the set up I gave you. I think having the low toned B string with the A pedal raise helps to get lower voiced harmonies that people with knee levers can get with thier E lower. You don't have that knee and this will help you to have I wider range with what you have. It also looks like the pulled fingers will line up better with your current
pullers.
I need to get some new pictures. Here's mine.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Guys,
My guitar has no serial number. Bobbe S. told me that wasn't unusual. But, as you can see, the mechanics on my guitar are different.

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