'Losing' the low C string on my C6th neck '?'

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

This occured to me a few years back, but I ignored my impulse, thinking that I had no business monkeying around with a long-established practice, being a relative newcomer to that tuning.

I think I'd now happily lose that low string and put a D string at #7, making my 10th string the F. I'm convinced it would make life easier for single-note playing in the 'middle' of the guitar.

I know that sharper talents than mine have already done this, but I wondered if there was any 'conventional wisdom' regarding any possible 'pulls' on my 'new' 7th string.

What about the F - should there be different pulls on that one, given that I wouldn't have the low C?

I'm convinced I wouldn't miss that low C on an open string. Neither would I miss the standard pedal 8 - raising my C strings as I do with a D on the 1st string gives me essentially the same chord.

What am I missing here, guys? (I've always thought of the tuning as an Fmaj9, anyway! Very Happy

)
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

roger,

I'm just learning C6, so I can't offer any opinion about what pulls would make sense. But I do know that Terry Crisp has his guitar tuned this way, and he has 5 KL's for that neck. maybe you could ask him. best of luck

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

I did this a lttle over a year ago

-it makes single note work much more logical (to me anyway)
-you lose the "strum" chords.
-you get some new 4th/5th/ modern sounding chords, but may have to pick 3 voices (or learn to use a 4th fingerpick) since no strum
-I have no changes on the 7th D, have all standard Emmons C6 pedals/levers (incl the F string BTW), but could see some logic for a raise to Eb as long as have the E to F change available to combine with (same as E9 B pedal + F# to G)
-As you say you will want C to C# pull (both octaves is my preference), and A to Bb both octaves is also important
-between the ease of pentatonic scales and the 9ths it moves the vibe of the tuning towards blues type playing I think
-Dan Tyack and I believe Bob Hoffnar uses the middle D also and some others, maybe they have more thoughts
-my top 3 strings are C D E, not in "chromatic" style, I like this better for scales

some more ideas here

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=130858&highlight=
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Dan Galysh · From: Hendersonville, Tennessee, USA

Roger,

I have the "Fmaj9" tuning on my Derby, as it was Terry Crisp's guitar at one time and I left it tuned that way. Although I did get some unique things out of it, I went back to playing the traditional C6 on my Emmons after missing the bottom end of the low C. I have 2 staggered LKLs on my C6 and on the outside one, I have a "DCA" lever which raises strings 7,8 and 9 (C,A,F) to those notes. This gives me the gist of the Fmaj9 way of tuning when I need it. I just engage the lever.

Wayne Dahl brought his Zum over awhile back and I got to hear how he uses this tuning. Here is a link to the Carter site which displays the copedent he had on his Carter:

http://www.steelguitar.com/webpix/playpix/waynedahl.html

If I remember correctly, it might be close to current. Judging by his single string playing, it lends itself very well to blues as Scott says.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I checked out Terry Crisps tuning also. Then I added the "DCA" knee lever to my guitar for a few months. It has its advantages and disadvantages. I really missed the strum chords and the low C note so I went back to the conventional C6 tuning.

C6 Tuning With DCA Change

Greg

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Roger, this works great for E9/B6 players as well. About 5 years ago I dropped the low B string on my universal and added the "D" string back in except I tuned it to C#. Any extended E9 player could just add a pull along with his E lowers that dropped the D string to C# and then you'd basically have the same thing as the Terry Crisp C6th. All of the regular B6th changes work well with this setup....JH in Va.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks so much, guys, for all your input (Hi, Jerry! Very Happy

) - it's very much appreciated!

I'm definitely at some sort of crossroads here - I have my standard guitars (two leGrande 111 D-10s), both of which are 'front line' instruments and are very comfortable for me, and then there's my new 'nemesis', a Mullen 12 string that I've had switched to Ext E9.

What to do, what to do????

I'll have to go one way or the other - 10 strings or 12 - unless the 12 string is simply going to remain an odd experiment for noodling on here at home; I doubt it's possible for me to commit to both at this time in my life.

Yesterday I was definitely veering towards the D-10s, and looking for a way to 'improve' my C6th layout, yet I now realise that I should give the 12 string a bit more time and thought before abandoning it.

Jerry: You're the second guy in 24 hours to suggest lowering the D to C# on the E/D# lever on my ext E9(thanks, Larry Bell) - it makes sense.

Greg: very helpful page there - thank you!

Dan: thanks, also - I had Terry very much in mind when I first thought about this option.

I think I can safely change the set-up on my #2 Emmons (my fake-mahogany D-10) without messing things up too much. I wouldn't dare tinker with my #1 guitar (my beloved black LG111 - 8+9) because Dave Robbins has made such a great job of aligning everything and getting it playing smooth as silk that it would be a crime for me to even look at the underneath!

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond here - much food-for-thought.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

here is my current chart, a few changes from Emmons now that I look back

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Roger, add me to the "middle D" list of players. See my 12 string C6add9 copedent. I really like having the middle root of the D9 chord, but the biggest plus is in single note phrasing which can become very lyrical without much bar movement.

I play with 4 picks and rarely used thumb sweep chords anyway. I wouldn't be able to get the chords I need without 4 picks. Something to consider.

When I had a middle D on a 10 string, I lowered the low string F to D on P5 to get my lowest note.
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Buddy Emmons · From: Hermitage, TN USA * R.I.P.

Roger… I had been struggling with the strum chords versus the single note advantages of the middle D note since 1974. A few years ago I solved my problem with it on a 12 string Sierra by using two C notes next to each other and raising string 8 from C to D with a knee lever. I also added a B to the second string, so the tuning, strings one through twelve, reads like this:
D, B, E, C, A, G, E, C, C, A, F, C.

I had a vertical, a LKL, and LKR knee lever on the C tuning, so I made it easy to keep the D raise engaged by putting it on my LKL and transferring my A to Ab lower to the vertical knee. Since I use the A to Ab lower with pedal five, it was just as easy to use on the vertical knee.

I might add that the B note I added to the second string opened up the tuning to some incredible single note combinations on the top end of the 12 string tuning. Physically, the first four strings are like the E9th tuning, only tuned to the C chord; so anybody with E9th savvy in that neighborhood would have a ball with it, especially with the A string included on the 5th string. The A note bridges the gap all the way down to the middle of the tuning where the D takes over.

I was hoping to record with it a few years back but never got around to it. For everybody with ten string tunings who are having the strum problem as I did, the two C’s and extra knee lever will do the trick. If you want to really blow yourself away with single notes on the lower end of the tuning, raise the F note to G along with the D raise lever. You lose a couple of nice chord combos by losing the F, so it would be a judgment call.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Scott:

Apart from strings 1 and 2 being reversed, I think I'd finish up with almost exactly what you have there. All I don't have currently is the A-Ab lower. I fitted a MKV on which I have the old P4 change (As to Bs), but P4 is currently only working on E9, so I could reinstate that and lower the A on the vertical. (I, too, like that 'reverse P6'.)

b0b:

You have a lot of options there! However, I've never played with a G on top (always a D with a raise on the 3rd) so I can't appreciate its advantages.

Buddy:

Trust you to throw the cat amongst the pigeons (as we say in the Old Country) with that B on the 2nd string idea! That must be amazing!!! But - I'm dealing witha 10-string guitar here, so unless I lost the F, too ( Devil

) that's just a pipe-dream for now. Two adjacent C strings is a great idea, but I wonder if I'd prefer lowering a D to a C on the 7th (for the 'strums') so as to have the E-D-C available 'open', as it were.

(Much food for thought with your 12-string tuning! Now I wonder if my newly-acquired Extended E9 Mullen might not be more fun set up your like Sierra - extended C6 with bells on!!! Very Happy

)
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Drew Howard · From: 48854

Great thread! I feel like a kid sneeking a peek into a science lab.

Not to hijack Roger's topic, but it is always nice to hear from Mr. Emmons. Made my day.

Happy holidays,
Drew

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Having 2 middle C notes is a very cool idea! Buddy rules!!! Cool

I might consult Jim Palenscar about putting that change on my D-12 someday, when he's in a particularly good mood. Sorry Jim....Ha.

Roger...since I've got a couple different changes on my steel that really need the low C, I'm probably never gonna get rid of it. I do raise my middle C to D using pedal 4 (which I then moved to a KL with halfstops raising A-Bb-B). It's not quite as cool as having the dedicated D, but having it be a movable note has got it's own thing that's especially cool right next to pedal 5. At any rate, D in the middle is a great note harmonically. Quartal harmony etc.

Whenever I sit down to work on my reading on C6, I always think how nice it would be to have the D string right there.

Let us know how your quest is going.

Rick

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Hmmm... now I kinda want to get an S-12 C6 guitar.

I'm stuck in Old Fuddy-Duddyland with my C6 as it is, though. And there's stuff from 1962 I still can't play. Embarassed

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Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I ditched the low C string maybe 15 years ago, and I've really liked it for doing single note playing (and for getting 4th stack chord voicings). I used to have a pedal that raised F->A, A->C and C->D, which I believe I stole from Buddy. I found that I was playing all the time with the pedal down, so I decided to just ditch the low C.

I'd like a 12 string C6th (I'd put something very close to Buddy's on there).

The Sacred Steel guys have used the double string idea for many years on E (double E strings in the middle, with a knee lever for raising to F#).

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