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Topic: return springs for pedals and knee levers? |
Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2009 6:36 am |
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I am getting to the stage in my guitar project where I want to get pedal and knee lever return springs. These are springs to return the pedals and knee levers to their stop position.
What is your experience as a builder in terms of the specifications? How much spring pressure measured at what distance? I am interested in the 3 or 4 coil springs with two legs and possibly a right angle bend at the end of legs. The i.d. of the coil should be 1/2 inch to go around the cross-shafts.
I would appreciate any help here.
Karlis |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 13 Nov 2009 8:38 am
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No! No! No! 
By putting return springs on the pedals and levers, you are increasing the effort required to activate them.
I don't know what type of steel that you are building, but there should be ample string tension to make the pedals/levers return
I always remove any return springs on my steels, a properly engineered steel doesn't need them. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Nov 2009 8:55 am
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| Knee levers generally do not have return springs. As far as the pedal return springs, why not use what most builders are already using? I'm sure any builder or repairer would probably sell you some. (Just look for a manufactured steel that has the same type of cross rods.) |
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Scott Howard
From:
Georgetown, TN, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2009 3:25 pm
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I agree with Richard . I do not use them on any thing but a vertical and then only sometimes to help keep it from just falling down. I remove them from mine also.
_________________
"The Oddball" A MSA Keyless with pedals to the right. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Nov 2009 6:46 pm
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My last project I used return springs on the cross shafts. Coil springs or U-shaped springs on the return stop. I made the spring out of music wire.The coil had 4 turns-JUST enough to return the actual weight of the lever/pedal, nothing more.
I am in favor of return springs. That way the whole load of returning the string to pitch is not only on the string itself.
Richard, did you find the pedals and knee levers too hard on Dave's birdseye?
The pic shows both types.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 13 Nov 2009 11:58 pm
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Bent,
The pedals and levers were in within acceptable limits, apart from the lever which drops the E's, which I told you was too hard at the time, due to the short length of the lower return springs.
If you played my ZB, your jaw would drop to the floor 
The pedals and levers are lighter than a feather.
Basil had a look at it when I played at a jam recently (CLICK HERE), and was amazed at how lightly it played |
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Jimmie Martin
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2009 4:19 am springs
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| Brent if you don't put something under the pointed end or bend the end up slightly won't the spring eventually dig in the body and be of no effect. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 14 Nov 2009 6:33 pm
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Richard I remember you talking about short vs long springs(actually a crash course in the dynamics of same)I hope I retained some of this knowledge for future use.
What I am surprised to hear though is what you call the short lower return springs are the very same length and weight of springs that are used on millions of steels today and yesteryear.
Did you get on the builders forum yet? Get yourself over there and share your knowledge on springs with all of us.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Nov 2009 6:12 am
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| Quote: |
| What I am surprised to hear though is what you call the short lower return springs are the very same length and weight of springs that are used on millions of steels today and yesteryear. |
Well, Richard does have a point about the longer springs, they would be better.
As far as removing pedal return springs, though, I don't go along with that idea. Properly selected springs would only add a few pounds to the pull, and I wouldn't consider that significant or disadvantageous unless I had some sort of a foot problem. I've found that pedal action can indeed be too easy, as it makes half-pedal moves less accurate. (Too light a feel can make me often "overshoot" the intended middle note.) |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 Nov 2009 7:23 am
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| Mount "flip-over helper-springs" on the bellcrank axles, and you'll have the best of both worlds. They act as return-springs near the release-point/start of pedal/lever action, and reverse fluidly through neutral to act as helper-springs once the pedal/lever gets moved a little. Properly adjusted they cancel out the raising resistance in short return-springs. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 15 Nov 2009 9:43 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| (Too light a feel can make me often "overshoot" the intended middle note.) |
Exactly, Donny. You need some resistance. Like you also mentioned, I agree that the trick is to have enough spring to JUST overcome the weight of the pedal/lever so the string itself doesn't have to pull everything back to neutral all alone. That's just asking for de-tuning problems IMO
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2009 9:57 am
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After reading Richard's post "No,No,No' I put my tuner on my current steel and measured the "b" string with the pedal resting naturally and with it lifted (no weight on the pull) and got absolutely no difference. I use a Peterson Strobe tuner and didn't see any variation between the two. I repeated it several times to make sure I was seeing what I was seeing. I have to agree with Richard that return springs are not required (except maybe for a large vertical knee lever).
Thank you for all of the replies. You guys are the best!
Karlis |
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