pedal 3 adjustment on MSA classic U12

Gary Rue · From: Maryland, USA

Pedal 3, 4th string (Eto F#).
I am having trouble getting enough distance to tune.
So far I have,bottomed out the pedal stop adjustment,made sure the changer was sycronized,and removed a coil from the changer spring. The pull rod is on a 2 hole bell crank. I was thinking that a 4 hole replacement may give it more distance.
I could use some ideas. Thankyou.

Scott Howard · From: Georgetown, TN, USA

What hole are you in on the changer? Mine is in the top hole the one close to the body. Check on the information site and it give good info for set up.

http://www.steelguitarinfo.com/infoindex.html

A ton of good info on this link.
_________________
"The Oddball" A MSA Keyless with pedals to the right.

Geoff Marshall · From: North Lincolnshire U,K.

I don't think 4 hole crank is the answer - best to get it working as it should. If Scotts suggestion does not work I would then, if it were me, - back off all the nylon adjusters to all other changes on that scissor finger - e to f e to e flat etc and see if they are snagging it - change the string - turn the guitar over on supports and see whats happening - await further suggestions if this is no help.

I had alot of trouble with my M S A Classic - 8th string stopped lowering e to e flat - in the end I took the whole changer unit out and found that the top scissor had had worn a grove into to top finger, the one the sring attaches too, after filing out the grove and reassemby it works just fine.

I hope you don't have to do that - good luck. G.

Scott Howard · From: Georgetown, TN, USA

I agree that a 4 hole is not the answer. It could get you there but you still have not fixed the problem. A few other things to look at is When did the problem happen. All at once ? When changing something ( A pull ,adjustment or string ). I have several MSA's and hole 2 on the bell crank is the normal with the closest to the body on the changer.
Back the pedal stop all the way out and then hold the pedal depressed and tighten it up until you feel it just start to move the pedal. This gets you max travel of the pedal. Work the pedal and make sure nothing is slipping or has slipped ( bell crank ,Brass pin,tunning nut ect. ). I have seen one MSA that broke the connector that the cross rod goes into and the pedal rod hooks into. It split the aluminum on the back side and would not pull the strings to pitch.
I got the impression that it was just one of the 2 string on the pedal that is giving you a problem so I don't think that would be it.
Going to a 4 hole will get more travel but it will also be stiffer as you get farther away from the crossrod on the bellcrank.
_________________
"The Oddball" A MSA Keyless with pedals to the right.

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

Gary: it that is in the hole closest to the body, and your E to F change on the other hole, I would reverse those two, that would make it work for you. If you were closer to me, I could help you out. I am near Cumberland.

Ernie Very Happy

Gary Rue · From: Maryland, USA

I will try all the above and post the mistery if I find the problem. It's just close enough to barely tune with the pedal adjustment completely backed out.
Thanks again.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Gary, I've never had this problem with either of my Older MSAs (one of which is no longer mine.) But I've always had my guitars worked on by qualified repair technicians. Mostly Tom Bradshaw, more recently Jim Palenscar, and once Barry Thomas.

I think the chances are that the guitar is just not set up properly. I suggest you take it to somebody who can fix it for you.
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Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Unless I overlooked it, no one has mentioned the pedal travel adjustment on the inside of the guitar's front apron. I suspect that the guitar was properly set up originally with whatever changer holes were used with whatever hole position was selected in the 4-hole bellcrank (probably the 2nd hole from the guitar's underside--maybe the 3rd). Apart from that, simply back off (counter-clockwise) the small allen set-screw right next to the pedal attachment strap, which is also mounted to the front apron. When this set-screw is backed off sufficiently, it extends the amount of pedal travel and will result in the string being pulled to the proper pitch.

Go past the necessary travel just a tad (for further adjusting). Your problem should be solved. I'd recommend a .013 gauge string in that E-note position.

...Tom

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

The longest pull is going to be the second hole down on the 'finger' from the body top, and the 'bellcrank' pull will be the furthest one away from the body.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I have had more than one older MSA that simply would not allow this change to occur with a .014 gauge 4th string w/o modifying the scissors. It is easy to check this by simply removing the rods in the 4th string holes and with a Phillips screwdriver activate the raise finger from the changer end of the guitar. If the changer will allow the change to occur you will be able to demonstrate it easily this way with your tuner and then you can modify the pedal/lever stops and rod positions accordingly. In the few cases that I've found that won't do it I've solved it by increasing the relief in the lower scissor allowing for the raise finger to move far enough to accomplish the raise. Otherwise there is a mechanical obstruction that starts the lower finger lowering as the raise finger approaches the desired note making it physically impossible to do without extending the relief. I use a dremmel or grinder to do it- no big deal except for having to remove and disassemble the changer. I don't know the reason for this to occur in a few of the older MSA changers- one would logically assume that the scissors are all the same and if one works they all would- I just know that it happens. Also I've had to do this occasionally (not always) to accomplish a 1st string raise of a whole step as well with these same scissors so I routinely check for this prior to doing just the 4th string in order to avoid doing it twice to the same guitar (obviously attempting to learn from my previous mistakes). Smile

Gary Rue · From: Maryland, USA

I have triple checked everything. The pedal stop is backed out,The bell crank is not cracked, I did Jims test and I changed to a .013 4th string and it gave me a little more. Its on on mark with nothing to spare.
I beleive I will need to do Jim's recommendation on the changer to get a little extra range for cabinet drop. It's playable but it bugs me!

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

On my MSA I had to hack away some wood to allow the raise bar to move far enough for a whole step raise. This was necessary on more than one string.

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

On every old "Classic" model MSA I restore, I file away a portion of all the changer lowering levers so that the raise levers can pull a string to a higher pitch if desired. Rarely is there a problem with any string except the 4th (E to F# change), but I do them all.

If you are against removing the changer, there is an easier way to do it if you only have problem with that E string. You file away some of that edge of the lowering lever on that changer leg. That portion you file off is where the raise lever encounters it before the pitch desired is achieved (where the "ears" of the raise lever hit the edge of the lowering lever). First you remove the spring holding back the lowering lever. You push it as far away from its permanent stop as you can get it. Then, with a small, slim file (and a lot of your time to kill), you file away about 1/8" of that lip. You do end up getting metal filings all over the changer, but if you have a good blowing vacuum, you can get most of it out of there.

I realize this explanation may be puzzling to anyone who has chosen to work on a pedal steel for the first time, but if you study how the changer works, you will figure out what I'm describing. ...Tom
P.S.: And even after all of that, you may have to do what Ernest Bovine suggests. That is because the changer holes cut in those old guitars were sometimes just too small for allowing the extra travel of the raise lever. So, the only option is to take a chisel and cut a "V" in the cabinet where that raise lever is hitting and preventing a string's pitch to be increased.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Cutting or filing wood sure seems easier than filing away the metal.

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Earnest, I was obviously not clear in my previous post. In order to affect the necessary raise in pitch of a string, those early MSA changer levers must first allow you to do it. Since some of them won't allow it, they have to be modified, by filing away the obstructing portion on the lowering lever.

If, however, the size of the hole in the cabinet is too small to permit the proper movement of the changer's raise lever, that area would then need to be cut away so the raise lever would not be stopped in it travel because of that obstruction.

I was agreeing with you that cutting away a small portion of the cabinet could then permit the raise lever to achieve its full excursion. But, if the raise lever is still prevented from moving farther (because of the presence of that metal portion of the lowering lever), cutting away the wood will not solve the problem.

I agree that sometimes IT IS the wood that prevents the full movement of the raise lever. Most often in my experience, however, the problem is the changer's lowering lever preventing the necessary movement of the raise lever.

I hope I've explained it sufficiently. I note that Jim Palenscar's explanation of the problem is identical to what I said in my post. I was in the middle of drafting my explanation and didn't see that he had already presented the solution to the problem. Next time he sees me he will probably slap me briskly like he has done in the past. Oh well....
...Tom

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

The problem is that if the raise reaches a point where it activates the lower at the same rate the pitch tends not to change consequently cutting the wood in this instance would not be beneficial.

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Hey Jim, didn't I just say that??? We need to get off of this topic. We're posting before we know what the other one said. So, it's my turn to do the slapping. ...Tom

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Sorry Tom- I'm a slow typer Smile

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

No it isn't although that is one of the 1st things that I try in a case like that (loosening up the lower return spring). In this case it is quite obvious when you feel it that there is a mechanical obstruction to advancing the raise scissor and, when you attempt to hold the lower scissor back- it simply cannot be done.

Gary Rue · From: Maryland, USA

You guys are going to hate me for this!
I had to play a job so I took some metal off the bottom of the pedal which gave me the extra adjustment.

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Oh no! Couldn't you chisel a hole in the floor?? Laughing

_________________
A.K.A Chappy.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

rotflmao

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